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Where can we get advice please - we're deparate!
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Margaret
Where can we get advice please - we're deparate!
Hello
My husband and I are thinking of buying a 3 bed apt overlooking Gramacho golf course...we have heard that lots of things are changing in Portugal regarding property ownership, taxes etc. and don't know which way to turn to get accurate advice. Can anyone help - or point us in the right direction....
The apt cost is 360e which we think is a reasonable price. Any views on this?
The running/service costs are approx 6800 euros per year (excluding maid/cleaning services which we pay as we use). We also think this is a reasonable price as it includes gardening, pool, building maintenance etc. and everything appears to be of a high standard.
The apt is currently off-shore & we'd prefer to own this privately but we're not sure how to go about this (should the seller do this before he sells to us or should we do this when we buy?). What are our options and cost / tax implications?
Is it normal to have a survey done (the apt is 2-3 years old)?
What should we budget for legal, SISA and other purchase related costs?. An estate agent told us to allow: 5% for SISA and 1% for other costs such as legal etc. - not sure how accurate these are & if there are other costs we need to consider?
What's the situation re: annual costs such as rates, taxes etc.
If we decide to let this out, is it best to declare the income in UK and pay UK tax on it?
Do we need to make ourelves known to any government/tax body like the inland revenue?
We don't as yet have a Portuguese bank account - is it advisable to open one locally or open a euro account with someone like Barclays?
Confused - please help, we'd like to make a decision in the next few days. It's a lot of money for us and we need to feel confident that we understand the impacts etc....
Thanks in advance for any help
My husband and I are thinking of buying a 3 bed apt overlooking Gramacho golf course...we have heard that lots of things are changing in Portugal regarding property ownership, taxes etc. and don't know which way to turn to get accurate advice. Can anyone help - or point us in the right direction....
The apt cost is 360e which we think is a reasonable price. Any views on this?
The running/service costs are approx 6800 euros per year (excluding maid/cleaning services which we pay as we use). We also think this is a reasonable price as it includes gardening, pool, building maintenance etc. and everything appears to be of a high standard.
The apt is currently off-shore & we'd prefer to own this privately but we're not sure how to go about this (should the seller do this before he sells to us or should we do this when we buy?). What are our options and cost / tax implications?
Is it normal to have a survey done (the apt is 2-3 years old)?
What should we budget for legal, SISA and other purchase related costs?. An estate agent told us to allow: 5% for SISA and 1% for other costs such as legal etc. - not sure how accurate these are & if there are other costs we need to consider?
What's the situation re: annual costs such as rates, taxes etc.
If we decide to let this out, is it best to declare the income in UK and pay UK tax on it?
Do we need to make ourelves known to any government/tax body like the inland revenue?
We don't as yet have a Portuguese bank account - is it advisable to open one locally or open a euro account with someone like Barclays?
Confused - please help, we'd like to make a decision in the next few days. It's a lot of money for us and we need to feel confident that we understand the impacts etc....
Thanks in advance for any help
Hi Margaret,
It would be wrong to post answers to your questions on the site, as they would be my own personal thoughts. If you care to e-mail me on apartzone@hotmail.com I will be happy to give you my opinion. You may, however, prefer to contact Biffa who is a pro in these matters. Any fee charged would be well worth it, as you only get one shot at this.
It would be wrong to post answers to your questions on the site, as they would be my own personal thoughts. If you care to e-mail me on apartzone@hotmail.com I will be happy to give you my opinion. You may, however, prefer to contact Biffa who is a pro in these matters. Any fee charged would be well worth it, as you only get one shot at this.
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Guest
Hi Margeret, flipping heck I've never seen so many questions in such a short space of text! Congratulations on finding somewhere first of all. The off shore is a problem still due to taxation well discussed on this forum. What does your solicitor say on this matter, also the agent selling. My thoughts are that the seller needs to bring it on shore at his / her cost and then buy it from them "on shore. However it's probably to late to do this before the end of the year. So howsabout he agrees to bring it back on shore, pay the the rates, (IMI or IMT, Can't remember) and taxes for 2004 and then you buy at the current agreed price.
The service charge looks a bit lumpy but not overly so. It does not mention maid service, how much would that cost etc. If it's a shared pool, do you share with the public as well. Loads of questions and this thread should be reading more than interesting by this time tommorow. Good luck, Mike. PS Don't let the hassle put you off, but don't let the heart rule the head! There will be others if need be.
The service charge looks a bit lumpy but not overly so. It does not mention maid service, how much would that cost etc. If it's a shared pool, do you share with the public as well. Loads of questions and this thread should be reading more than interesting by this time tommorow. Good luck, Mike. PS Don't let the hassle put you off, but don't let the heart rule the head! There will be others if need be.
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Margaret
Thanks!!!!
Thanks for the responses so far, I have emailed Ranger and Kteee... How do I contact Biffa - sounds like he's the man in the know on these matters.
Mike - agree about the questions.... there's so much conflicting info out there - I don't know what to believe. The selling agent came back to me 10 mins ago & said that there is no difference between us buying an off-shore property vs a property from a private individual. We'd put the property into our names & pay the SISA tax... He did advise that I clarify this with my lawyer who is very slow to respond to my questions & only tells me half the story - hey, maybe I need to find a new lawyer?
Margaret
Mike - agree about the questions.... there's so much conflicting info out there - I don't know what to believe. The selling agent came back to me 10 mins ago & said that there is no difference between us buying an off-shore property vs a property from a private individual. We'd put the property into our names & pay the SISA tax... He did advise that I clarify this with my lawyer who is very slow to respond to my questions & only tells me half the story - hey, maybe I need to find a new lawyer?
Margaret
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Guest
WELL LET ME SAY THAT WHOEVER BUYS AN OFFSHORE NOW NEEDS A BRAIN TRANSPLANT...DONT TOUCH IT WITH A BARGE POLE...AS FOR THE "MAINTENCE COSTS" THEY ARE DAYLIGHT ROBBERY...YOU WILL I SUSPECT HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THEM...FOR THAT PRICE YOU COULD HAVE SOMEONE WORKING JUST FOR YOU FULL TIME.
UNLESS YOUR KEEN ON GOLF...ONCE AGAIN LIVING NEXT TO OR ON A GOLF COURSE WILL BE DREADFULL....THESE SORTS OF PLACES ARE WHERE YOU CAN T LIVE NORMALLY..I.E GET YOUR ELECTRIC DRIL OUT
HANG WASHING UP PLAY YOUR RADIO..
BUY SOMETHING WHERE YOU CONTROL THINGS...NOT SOMEONE ELSE
UNLESS YOUR KEEN ON GOLF...ONCE AGAIN LIVING NEXT TO OR ON A GOLF COURSE WILL BE DREADFULL....THESE SORTS OF PLACES ARE WHERE YOU CAN T LIVE NORMALLY..I.E GET YOUR ELECTRIC DRIL OUT
HANG WASHING UP PLAY YOUR RADIO..
BUY SOMETHING WHERE YOU CONTROL THINGS...NOT SOMEONE ELSE
6800 per annum EXCLUDING maid.!!!!!!!!!!!....for heavens sake dont be sucked into this...keep your money and look somewhere else..for 360000 euros (am i correct?) you can buy a detached villa for this price
walk away..its expensive very very expensive...i wonder when you come to sell who will buy it...well i certainly wouldnt
walk away..its expensive very very expensive...i wonder when you come to sell who will buy it...well i certainly wouldnt
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kidson
Re: Where can we get advice please - we're deparate!
Suggest strongly you do nothing until you go to this site and make contact with the MD.Margaret wrote:Hello
My husband and I are thinking of buying a 3 bed apt overlooking Gramacho golf course...we have heard that lots of things are changing in Portugal regarding property ownership, taxes etc. and don't know which way to turn to get accurate advice. Can anyone help - or point us in the right direction....
The apt cost is 360e which we think is a reasonable price. Any views on this?
The running/service costs are approx 6800 euros per year (excluding maid/cleaning services which we pay as we use). We also think this is a reasonable price as it includes gardening, pool, building maintenance etc. and everything appears to be of a high standard.
The apt is currently off-shore & we'd prefer to own this privately but we're not sure how to go about this (should the seller do this before he sells to us or should we do this when we buy?). What are our options and cost / tax implications?
Is it normal to have a survey done (the apt is 2-3 years old)?
What should we budget for legal, SISA and other purchase related costs?. An estate agent told us to allow: 5% for SISA and 1% for other costs such as legal etc. - not sure how accurate these are & if there are other costs we need to consider?
What's the situation re: annual costs such as rates, taxes etc.
If we decide to let this out, is it best to declare the income in UK and pay UK tax on it?
Do we need to make ourelves known to any government/tax body like the inland revenue?
We don't as yet have a Portuguese bank account - is it advisable to open one locally or open a euro account with someone like Barclays?
Confused - please help, we'd like to make a decision in the next few days. It's a lot of money for us and we need to feel confident that we understand the impacts etc....
Thanks in advance for any help
http://www.sovereigngroup.com/worldwide ... untryID=12
Good luck
OK, lets take a deep breath and tackle a few of these points.
1. Most of us on this site are purely 'informed amateurs' with regards to tax issues, and as such, I repeat, contact Biffa (at the address given by Kidson above) - he does this for a living and a few hours with him will I am sure be money very well spent.
2. Properties on Gramacho - they do command a price premium over other properties in the area, and wether this premium is worth paying is up to the individual. 'Guest' states that you cannot get your drill out - this is the whole point of the Pestana complex - you don't need to! If like most people you work very hard and holiday time is precious, then the 'full service' approach offered by Pestana is worth every penny - it is almost like having your own private hotel suite where everything is taken care of for you - if this is what you are looking for you will have to go a long way to find better.
3. The service charges look high initially, but when you realise that this includes full manned 24 hour security, pool heating, garden, water etc etc then it becomes reasonable value.
4. You own villa in the wilderness may be a lovely idea, but it is hard work running it from afar. Also, if you have children, the communal pool set up (open only to owners of the appartments in the immediate vicinity) is fantastic for them to make friends and is normally a hive of activity in the summer months (and no, the golfers don't seem to complain about any noise they make)
5. Bank accounts - open one locally (Pestana offfice will happily help) - you cannot do direct debits/cheques or anything else useful if you have a UK Euro account, so they are a waste of time unless you want to minimise currency risk.
6. Survey - whilst not recommending you to miss this out, the buildings come with a ten year guarantee and are built to a very high standard.
7. If you are a golfer then the ability to walk off to the first tee leaving the other half with the car cannot be understated - also being able to nip out for a few holes late afternoon or early morning is a real benefit.
You may have concluded that I have a property on Gramacho, which we bought two years ago and have not regretted a minute of it - in fact my four year old wants 'luggage' for Christmas which shows how much he enjoys being in Carvoeiro.
If you want any more info about this please feel free to send a private message or email.
Good Luck
Graham
1. Most of us on this site are purely 'informed amateurs' with regards to tax issues, and as such, I repeat, contact Biffa (at the address given by Kidson above) - he does this for a living and a few hours with him will I am sure be money very well spent.
2. Properties on Gramacho - they do command a price premium over other properties in the area, and wether this premium is worth paying is up to the individual. 'Guest' states that you cannot get your drill out - this is the whole point of the Pestana complex - you don't need to! If like most people you work very hard and holiday time is precious, then the 'full service' approach offered by Pestana is worth every penny - it is almost like having your own private hotel suite where everything is taken care of for you - if this is what you are looking for you will have to go a long way to find better.
3. The service charges look high initially, but when you realise that this includes full manned 24 hour security, pool heating, garden, water etc etc then it becomes reasonable value.
4. You own villa in the wilderness may be a lovely idea, but it is hard work running it from afar. Also, if you have children, the communal pool set up (open only to owners of the appartments in the immediate vicinity) is fantastic for them to make friends and is normally a hive of activity in the summer months (and no, the golfers don't seem to complain about any noise they make)
5. Bank accounts - open one locally (Pestana offfice will happily help) - you cannot do direct debits/cheques or anything else useful if you have a UK Euro account, so they are a waste of time unless you want to minimise currency risk.
6. Survey - whilst not recommending you to miss this out, the buildings come with a ten year guarantee and are built to a very high standard.
7. If you are a golfer then the ability to walk off to the first tee leaving the other half with the car cannot be understated - also being able to nip out for a few holes late afternoon or early morning is a real benefit.
You may have concluded that I have a property on Gramacho, which we bought two years ago and have not regretted a minute of it - in fact my four year old wants 'luggage' for Christmas which shows how much he enjoys being in Carvoeiro.
If you want any more info about this please feel free to send a private message or email.
Good Luck
Graham
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Gramacho
We own a villa on Gramacho course and love it. Yes, the costs may be on the high side but as Graham already pointed out, you do nothing when you get there. Just unpack, lie back and enjoy yourself. Also having the Club House nearby for a drink, snack or light meal is worth it. The standard of upkeep and help given is extremely high. I know you can villas really cheap compared to Gramacho, but where can you get the benefit of knowing there is 24 hour security and that your villa/apartment is safe? Worth it in my eyes !
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Guest
well if you have the money to pay these charges then good luck....but they are still daylight robbery...if you just want to come and relax then why not just buy a time share or go to hotel for 2 weeks...i suspect even at a hotel you will still get change from 6000 euros per annum.
"as you dont need to do anything they do it for you."..well of course if you want to pay these charges you can....from however a property investment viewpoint...buy something you own and and can control the maintainence charges..this year they may be 6000 next year 7000 next year 8000...who controls it..there are cases running now at val de lobo and at rochas brava where the resisdents are objecting to the charges levied.
as for amateur advice...i dont think so ... i have been here 12 years and know quite a number of pitfalls to living here in portugal
"as you dont need to do anything they do it for you."..well of course if you want to pay these charges you can....from however a property investment viewpoint...buy something you own and and can control the maintainence charges..this year they may be 6000 next year 7000 next year 8000...who controls it..there are cases running now at val de lobo and at rochas brava where the resisdents are objecting to the charges levied.
as for amateur advice...i dont think so ... i have been here 12 years and know quite a number of pitfalls to living here in portugal
Dear Guest,
Firstly, I stated that we are all mainly amateurs in the taxation/finance field, not about living in Portugal of which there are clearly a number of well informed and very helpful members of this forum.
Whilst you are a a self proclaimed expert on living in Portugal, having a holiday home has different requirements and demands to being full time resident, simplicity and security being two key issues.
As I am sure you know, the Gramacho charges are actually put before the owners at the annual meeting, and all increases are voted on by the owners (except inflationery ones), therefore I feel safe that the charges will only increase if, for example, the owners wish to improve the number of security people or other such issue.
Also on this issue, you will know that Pestana are still developing properties on the Pinta course and elsewhere, and this is likely to continue for at least the next ten years. With the Gramacho development being their 'flagship' it would be commercial suicide for them to have the charges increase dramatically, or to let the standard of the development fall.
You suggest timeshare for two weeks or a Hotel - I would suspect that most Villa/large apartment owners use their properties for considerably more than two weeks - including my family, relatives, friends etc I occupied my property for 98 days this year with an average of six people at any one time - this works out at 588 people/days, i.e 13 Euros/person for each day stayed - I would be delighted to know where you think such good value could be matched.
Finally, from a property investment point of view I think that you will find that price increases on the Gramacho development have actually outstripped most other property in Carvoeiro, and the sales staff do not seem to have any difficulty finding buyers for the very few properties that come on the market.
Finally, there are two sides to every coin, and what is paradise to one man will be purgatory to another. It is always wise to at least recognise that there is another point of view.
Graham
Firstly, I stated that we are all mainly amateurs in the taxation/finance field, not about living in Portugal of which there are clearly a number of well informed and very helpful members of this forum.
Whilst you are a a self proclaimed expert on living in Portugal, having a holiday home has different requirements and demands to being full time resident, simplicity and security being two key issues.
As I am sure you know, the Gramacho charges are actually put before the owners at the annual meeting, and all increases are voted on by the owners (except inflationery ones), therefore I feel safe that the charges will only increase if, for example, the owners wish to improve the number of security people or other such issue.
Also on this issue, you will know that Pestana are still developing properties on the Pinta course and elsewhere, and this is likely to continue for at least the next ten years. With the Gramacho development being their 'flagship' it would be commercial suicide for them to have the charges increase dramatically, or to let the standard of the development fall.
You suggest timeshare for two weeks or a Hotel - I would suspect that most Villa/large apartment owners use their properties for considerably more than two weeks - including my family, relatives, friends etc I occupied my property for 98 days this year with an average of six people at any one time - this works out at 588 people/days, i.e 13 Euros/person for each day stayed - I would be delighted to know where you think such good value could be matched.
Finally, from a property investment point of view I think that you will find that price increases on the Gramacho development have actually outstripped most other property in Carvoeiro, and the sales staff do not seem to have any difficulty finding buyers for the very few properties that come on the market.
Finally, there are two sides to every coin, and what is paradise to one man will be purgatory to another. It is always wise to at least recognise that there is another point of view.
Graham
many thanks for your thoughts!!!
To everyone who has taken the time to respond to my plea for help - many thanks. It's interesting to hear other people's thoughts and opinions...
I understand that property on a golf course is likely to be more expensive that comparable properies in the vicinity and I appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea - there are always pro's and con's and what appeals to one won't appeal to another. Key factors for us are security and convenience. We are likely to spend 1-2 weeks there a year and need to be confident that the apt and surrounding area/development is safe, secure and being looked after properly. On the convenience side - we both work such long hours, we struggle to maintain our house in the UK so are not interested in a property that needs any kind of TLC, management, maintenance or attention - either initially or on-going (I appreciate that there are management agencies who may be able to take care of these things for you)...
To the guest who mentioned we could buy a villa for 360k euros - I've had a look around at propery for sale on the internet and I have to say, there aren't many Villas in or around Carvoeiro in that price bracket.....
There seems to be a view that property on the golf course won't rent as easily (or be as lucrative) as properties nearer the village... I am a little surprised by this and would welcome any experiences the Gramacho owners care to share.
my email address is margaret.smith@axon.co.uk
Many thanks to all.......
I understand that property on a golf course is likely to be more expensive that comparable properies in the vicinity and I appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea - there are always pro's and con's and what appeals to one won't appeal to another. Key factors for us are security and convenience. We are likely to spend 1-2 weeks there a year and need to be confident that the apt and surrounding area/development is safe, secure and being looked after properly. On the convenience side - we both work such long hours, we struggle to maintain our house in the UK so are not interested in a property that needs any kind of TLC, management, maintenance or attention - either initially or on-going (I appreciate that there are management agencies who may be able to take care of these things for you)...
To the guest who mentioned we could buy a villa for 360k euros - I've had a look around at propery for sale on the internet and I have to say, there aren't many Villas in or around Carvoeiro in that price bracket.....
There seems to be a view that property on the golf course won't rent as easily (or be as lucrative) as properties nearer the village... I am a little surprised by this and would welcome any experiences the Gramacho owners care to share.
my email address is margaret.smith@axon.co.uk
Many thanks to all.......
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Guest
if you cant find anything for 360 in carvoeiro look further afield...you say that you only want two weeks? did i read this wrong then consider again a timeshare...a secondhand time share might be an answer...as for renting it out..i think you will have a very very hard job to earn anything with these charges...one german couple i know found that after a full seasons bookings they still owned money to the villa management agency and they ddnt have the noose of 6000 euros "maintance"..i suspect that alot of this is water charges...suggest you read the thread "oh no"