|Home| Info| Community| Business| Beaches| What to do?| Rentals| News| Forum| Blogs| Finance| History| FAQ| Contact|
oh no!!!
Ellie,
I guess there will be a limit when there are quotas set down by the Portuguese government on how many tourists, especially those ones carrying those funny bags with 14 canes in them, can enter the country.
Until then there will probably be building of courses to meet the demands of the market down there, and I can assure you that if you mean Overbuilding in the sense that there are too many courses for too few players I doubt that will happen. With the way it works in Portugal with projects there is so much running time from when a project is thought of until it is conceived that there is enough time to access the economic climate.
Rest assured I doubt though that it will be one continuous ribbon of green from Castro Marin to Cabo St. Vincent.
I guess there will be a limit when there are quotas set down by the Portuguese government on how many tourists, especially those ones carrying those funny bags with 14 canes in them, can enter the country.
Until then there will probably be building of courses to meet the demands of the market down there, and I can assure you that if you mean Overbuilding in the sense that there are too many courses for too few players I doubt that will happen. With the way it works in Portugal with projects there is so much running time from when a project is thought of until it is conceived that there is enough time to access the economic climate.
Rest assured I doubt though that it will be one continuous ribbon of green from Castro Marin to Cabo St. Vincent.
Ellie,
in using word "overbuilding" I was referring to the original message --the website there--with the intention of building another 1000 villas near Silves.
I think Martin will have concerns --as he lives near there.I think I mean "loss of countryside"--thats what concerns me Tim.
This helps clarify and muddle it a bit from your original response to Guest which I questioned you on.
The thought of ever more "artificial landscapes" horrifies me. Your alluding to the "golf course scenery"--leads me to my first witnessing of Pestana golf -on my recent holiday. I actually went there to try to look up a very old friend who works there --but after walking round getting lost and feeling as though I wandered into some surreal nightmare --i gave up and was glad to high tail out
Surrounding this artificial monstrosity there were complete areas of wilderness broken down walls badly kept roads--but at least it was "real" and I know which I prefer--yet I know it wont be long before that too will be carved out for ever more luxury villas and --heaven forbid ---golf courses.
Is it golf courses or villas at issue here?
Tiny
in using word "overbuilding" I was referring to the original message --the website there--with the intention of building another 1000 villas near Silves.
I think Martin will have concerns --as he lives near there.I think I mean "loss of countryside"--thats what concerns me Tim.
This helps clarify and muddle it a bit from your original response to Guest which I questioned you on.
The thought of ever more "artificial landscapes" horrifies me. Your alluding to the "golf course scenery"--leads me to my first witnessing of Pestana golf -on my recent holiday. I actually went there to try to look up a very old friend who works there --but after walking round getting lost and feeling as though I wandered into some surreal nightmare --i gave up and was glad to high tail out
Surrounding this artificial monstrosity there were complete areas of wilderness broken down walls badly kept roads--but at least it was "real" and I know which I prefer--yet I know it wont be long before that too will be carved out for ever more luxury villas and --heaven forbid ---golf courses.
Is it golf courses or villas at issue here?
Tiny
-
Ellie
Confusion
Good answer hi-handicap---"birdies" i mean--but as i dont know a single thing about golf :?Whats an "eagle " or "albatross"--Ive only ever played "clock" golf---going round in circles --and getting precisely nowhere 
Im sure Tim thinks this of me --im confusing myself now 
But glad you agree about restoration of old buildings--would be good to see that
I did do a years conservation course and I do fear the gradual loss of precious countryside-I live in beautiful part of the Lincolnshire Wolds --and its happening here too---houses lay empty -yet theyre building big estates --4-bedroom houses that local young people cant afford--is it the same in Algarve
Im sure Tim thinks this of me --im confusing myself now But glad you agree about restoration of old buildings--would be good to see that
I did do a years conservation course and I do fear the gradual loss of precious countryside-I live in beautiful part of the Lincolnshire Wolds --and its happening here too---houses lay empty -yet theyre building big estates --4-bedroom houses that local young people cant afford--is it the same in Algarve
Some background materal:
Acording to a New York State Department of Law report, "Toxic Fairways: Risking Groundwater Contamination from Pesticides on Long Island Golf Courses," a typical 18-hole golf course annually uses 50,000 pounds of dry and liquid chemicals (containing approximately 1000 pounds of active ingredients) -- about 18 pounds per treated acre (seven times the amount used by large-scale agriculture).
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/golf.html
The use of pesticides and fertilizers on golf courses is an inherent necessity to maintain high quality playing conditions and aesthetically pleasing grounds. However, extensive use of these chemicals, in conjunction with other golf course management practices, has raised questions concerning the impact of these practices on the environment.
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/nrsl/entm ... ourse.html
this is also an intersting site:
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/sbe/planbib ... lt/03.html
And this:
http://www.barbarareadvillas.com/golf_algarve.asp
Acording to a New York State Department of Law report, "Toxic Fairways: Risking Groundwater Contamination from Pesticides on Long Island Golf Courses," a typical 18-hole golf course annually uses 50,000 pounds of dry and liquid chemicals (containing approximately 1000 pounds of active ingredients) -- about 18 pounds per treated acre (seven times the amount used by large-scale agriculture).
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/golf.html
The use of pesticides and fertilizers on golf courses is an inherent necessity to maintain high quality playing conditions and aesthetically pleasing grounds. However, extensive use of these chemicals, in conjunction with other golf course management practices, has raised questions concerning the impact of these practices on the environment.
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/nrsl/entm ... ourse.html
this is also an intersting site:
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/sbe/planbib ... lt/03.html
And this:
http://www.barbarareadvillas.com/golf_algarve.asp
Aside from the aesthetic and land use questions (I can see an 18-hole golf course being a fire break...kinda), and we ARE talking about a market driven economy.......
Even so, there are 3 (count them) three big problems with ANY golf course
(1) Water
(2) pesticides and fertalizer
(3) runoff
back to you guys......
Even so, there are 3 (count them) three big problems with ANY golf course
(1) Water
(2) pesticides and fertalizer
(3) runoff
back to you guys......
"And who has yet come up with reliable information, rather than heresay, that shows that the water table is decreasing,and that it is due to golf course irrigation. If the water table is suffering then it is more likely to be multi factorial, such as increased numbers of visitors, climate change, rather than being purely the fault of one specific minority area.
It is so easy to apportian blame, without recourse to the facts."
..............................................................
That info. is the next thing I'm going after....(rember, there is a 6hr time differance)....see you about 3am tommrrow.
It is so easy to apportian blame, without recourse to the facts."
..............................................................
That info. is the next thing I'm going after....(rember, there is a 6hr time differance)....see you about 3am tommrrow.
-
Guest
well tiny tim likes to debate line by line everything that is written about golf course...rather let me ask this..in the midle of august when everything is a brown and patched look a for example Carvoeiro golf and see vivid green manicured grass fields .
please ask yourself is this natural?
is it sustained by vast amounts of water which are taken from somewhere underground.
as for desalination ..only gibraltar to my knowledge has this system because it is very expensive
i have about 15 square metres of grass...in the summer if i sprinlke the lawn every night for a hour and i CANNOT keep it green. i wonder how these golf courses do it????????
i have no vendatta angaint golf courses per se...but think that they should be built in places where there is suffiecient natural resources to sustain them.
the problem with the development in silves if you look at their plans and pictures of what they want it to be like, is that it naturally unsustainable.
look at old portuguese houses and ask how much grass they have in front of them...perhaps some lessons can be learnt
please ask yourself is this natural?
is it sustained by vast amounts of water which are taken from somewhere underground.
as for desalination ..only gibraltar to my knowledge has this system because it is very expensive
i have about 15 square metres of grass...in the summer if i sprinlke the lawn every night for a hour and i CANNOT keep it green. i wonder how these golf courses do it????????
i have no vendatta angaint golf courses per se...but think that they should be built in places where there is suffiecient natural resources to sustain them.
the problem with the development in silves if you look at their plans and pictures of what they want it to be like, is that it naturally unsustainable.
look at old portuguese houses and ask how much grass they have in front of them...perhaps some lessons can be learnt
-
Ellie
Housing
Hear Hear Guest--re: traditional Portuguese houses----and I take on board the fact of you regularly watering your patch--yet it nowhere comes up to the vivid green of local golf courses--funny that--or pretty obvious!
We drove north of Silves, Messines, and through Senhora da Verde to Monchique a few times and was absolutely devastated by the fire damage we saw--yet--there are brand new roads in these areas--so moneys being spent on some things (we always found the roads before that perfectly okay)--why wasnt it spent on essential equipment to put out the fires --as you say--theres "plenty" of water available for golf courses
From someone who knows(not a million miles from me!)--Forest fires cause strong winds--if a tree on fire crowns(at the top) burning embers can be blown vast distances;greater than your local golf course--so forget the fire break idea It can certainly jump rivers as I believe it did at one point along the Arade.
Just look at the terrible fires now burning in California--with burning embers travelling vast distances affecting urban areas and making hundreds homeless---people having to evacuate their homes for their own safety.
Sorry--Ive digressed somewhat from the topic---which is concern over the vast amount of building planned near Silves
I have very deep suspicions on how/why those fires in Algarve were "allowed" to rage--I dont think Silves will be the only place where vast building schemes will happen
Looking forward to seeing more reports from Cowboy tomorrow AM
We drove north of Silves, Messines, and through Senhora da Verde to Monchique a few times and was absolutely devastated by the fire damage we saw--yet--there are brand new roads in these areas--so moneys being spent on some things (we always found the roads before that perfectly okay)--why wasnt it spent on essential equipment to put out the fires --as you say--theres "plenty" of water available for golf courses
From someone who knows(not a million miles from me!)--Forest fires cause strong winds--if a tree on fire crowns(at the top) burning embers can be blown vast distances;greater than your local golf course--so forget the fire break idea
It can certainly jump rivers as I believe it did at one point along the Arade.Just look at the terrible fires now burning in California--with burning embers travelling vast distances affecting urban areas and making hundreds homeless---people having to evacuate their homes for their own safety.
Sorry--Ive digressed somewhat from the topic---which is concern over the vast amount of building planned near Silves
I have very deep suspicions on how/why those fires in Algarve were "allowed" to rage--I dont think Silves will be the only place where vast building schemes will happen
Looking forward to seeing more reports from Cowboy tomorrow AM
well tiny tim likes to debate line by line everything that is written about golf course...rather let me ask this..in the midle of august when everything is a brown and patched look a for example Carvoeiro golf and see vivid green manicured grass fields .
please ask yourself is this natural?
This can occur when warm season grasses, which are adapted to climates like Algarve, some of which are naturally occuring there already, are used.
is it sustained by vast amounts of water which are taken from somewhere underground.
Can you quantify what is vast to you? I have quantified that an average champ. golf course in the Algarve can use up to 2800 m3 of water at the height of the hot season.
Not all water is taken underground, some use captured rainwater and stored in reservoirs. I forgot to mention water-sewer treatment plants too can supply water to the golf course after secondary treatment.
as for desalination ..only gibraltar to my knowledge has this system because it is very expensive
This technology is coming down in start-up costs and will be used more and more in the future for many applications. Some golf courses already in Dubai, Cyprus are using de-salt water.
i have about 15 square metres of grass...in the summer if i sprinlke the lawn every night for a hour and i CANNOT keep it green. i wonder how these golf courses do it????????
Good question about your lawn. What is the water delivery rate/m2/hour when you sprinkle it? What is the water quality you use in terms of salts, ? What sort of turfgrass is your lawn (e.g. Festuca sp., Agrostis sp., Lolium sp., Cynodon sp., Zoysia sp. etc., or polystands of the previous), What is the soil type of your lawn? What sort of cultural practices do you do in terms of decompaction of upper and lower soil strata on a year round basis? What is the surface slope of your lawn? What is the shade-shadow factors of the lawn? Do you have any other plants that would compete for the nutrients and water? What is your maintenance regimes in terms of N, P, K trace elements, micronutrients on a year round basis? Do you perform soil tests/tissue tests to determine what nutrient regimes to apply? These kind of issues ar dealt with by professionally qualified head greenskeepers who work within strict budgets. As you know water (perhaps metered by the gov at the well) and the pumping of water costs money, so they have an interest to utilize the water in the most efficient manner as possible. Perhaps you could call your head supt over for a beer and a friendly chat about your lawn and its predicament?
i have no vendatta angaint golf courses per se...but think that they should be built in places where there is suffiecient natural resources to sustain them.
Guest, on one point above you lament about not being able to keep your lawn green in August, and then here you contradict yourself. You can’t have it both ways.
the problem with the development in silves if you look at their plans and pictures of what they want it to be like, is that it naturally unsustainable.
Are you speaking about the housing portion of the development (making reference to the following)?
look at old portuguese houses and ask how much grass they have in front of them...perhaps some lessons can be learnt
please ask yourself is this natural?
This can occur when warm season grasses, which are adapted to climates like Algarve, some of which are naturally occuring there already, are used.
is it sustained by vast amounts of water which are taken from somewhere underground.
Can you quantify what is vast to you? I have quantified that an average champ. golf course in the Algarve can use up to 2800 m3 of water at the height of the hot season.
Not all water is taken underground, some use captured rainwater and stored in reservoirs. I forgot to mention water-sewer treatment plants too can supply water to the golf course after secondary treatment.
as for desalination ..only gibraltar to my knowledge has this system because it is very expensive
This technology is coming down in start-up costs and will be used more and more in the future for many applications. Some golf courses already in Dubai, Cyprus are using de-salt water.
i have about 15 square metres of grass...in the summer if i sprinlke the lawn every night for a hour and i CANNOT keep it green. i wonder how these golf courses do it????????
Good question about your lawn. What is the water delivery rate/m2/hour when you sprinkle it? What is the water quality you use in terms of salts, ? What sort of turfgrass is your lawn (e.g. Festuca sp., Agrostis sp., Lolium sp., Cynodon sp., Zoysia sp. etc., or polystands of the previous), What is the soil type of your lawn? What sort of cultural practices do you do in terms of decompaction of upper and lower soil strata on a year round basis? What is the surface slope of your lawn? What is the shade-shadow factors of the lawn? Do you have any other plants that would compete for the nutrients and water? What is your maintenance regimes in terms of N, P, K trace elements, micronutrients on a year round basis? Do you perform soil tests/tissue tests to determine what nutrient regimes to apply? These kind of issues ar dealt with by professionally qualified head greenskeepers who work within strict budgets. As you know water (perhaps metered by the gov at the well) and the pumping of water costs money, so they have an interest to utilize the water in the most efficient manner as possible. Perhaps you could call your head supt over for a beer and a friendly chat about your lawn and its predicament?
i have no vendatta angaint golf courses per se...but think that they should be built in places where there is suffiecient natural resources to sustain them.
Guest, on one point above you lament about not being able to keep your lawn green in August, and then here you contradict yourself. You can’t have it both ways.
the problem with the development in silves if you look at their plans and pictures of what they want it to be like, is that it naturally unsustainable.
Are you speaking about the housing portion of the development (making reference to the following)?
look at old portuguese houses and ask how much grass they have in front of them...perhaps some lessons can be learnt
Last edited by Tiny Tim on Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
-
Hi handicap
I would assume that the old portuguese houses didnt have grass because (a) portuguese werent interested in planting grass, and (b) they had no readily available water. By readily available I mean that it was on the surface - they probably didnt have the skills or ability to dig for it.
But to regress a bit - where is the evidence that there is not sufficient water, or that the available water is decreasing. And isn't the water metered so that places like golf clubs would be paying huge sums of money for the privelege of having water on their course. What happens to all this money?
Southern Algarve until recently was a virtual wilderness - drive out towards St Vincent and see it as it is/was - Tourism has brought the prosperity,and with the prosperity has come the sourcing of water. What is now wanted is to be able to source sufficient water to irrigate the agricultural land, so that the local people can also share this prosperity
FORE
But to regress a bit - where is the evidence that there is not sufficient water, or that the available water is decreasing. And isn't the water metered so that places like golf clubs would be paying huge sums of money for the privelege of having water on their course. What happens to all this money?
Southern Algarve until recently was a virtual wilderness - drive out towards St Vincent and see it as it is/was - Tourism has brought the prosperity,and with the prosperity has come the sourcing of water. What is now wanted is to be able to source sufficient water to irrigate the agricultural land, so that the local people can also share this prosperity
FORE
-
Red
Ellie - concerned as you about the overbuilding (can't recall seeing golf mentioned and this is all getting rather complicated) Hope Coop finds all the info required to help you out on this 
Totally agree with you about renovating properties but could be traditional laws which are preventing this? Houses kept within families, left empty- instead of being sold can't be renovated resulting in demand for new build? Need a local expert on that one! And if there is such a demand why are so many properties, shops etc. still EMPTY with no sign of anyone having bought such as new buildings/apts on road into Cvo?
why so many? - is there really a demand for these luxury large villas? Who is earning the money to pay for them? Property developers and lawyers? Thought there was a Global Recession? A lot of people are 'buying' property but have they really got the means to make the repayments - what happens then?
I think there is a real element of greed here and not a demand in the market?!
Is it just me, or have the experts failed to defend against the heavy accusations regarding fertilizers and other chemical substances that get flushed into the ground from every golf course??cowboy wrote:Some background materal:
Acording to a New York State Department of Law report, "Toxic Fairways: Risking Groundwater Contamination from Pesticides on Long Island Golf Courses," a typical 18-hole golf course annually uses 50,000 pounds of dry and liquid chemicals (containing approximately 1000 pounds of active ingredients) -- about 18 pounds per treated acre (seven times the amount used by large-scale agriculture).
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/golf.html
The use of pesticides and fertilizers on golf courses is an inherent necessity to maintain high quality playing conditions and aesthetically pleasing grounds. However, extensive use of these chemicals, in conjunction with other golf course management practices, has raised questions concerning the impact of these practices on the environment.
I mean, if the drinking water is really that heavily contaminated (there is only so much that can be filtered out before it hits the pipes) then the question comes to mind, if all these financial and developent benefits aren't offset slightly by the fact that these artificial entertainment venues are (potentially) slowly killing people off.
Furthermore, these substances also travel through other biological cycles that lead them into the human body - plants & animals we eat will inevitably be contaminated to certain degrees also.
Is this not just another "benefit" of the 21st century that exposes the human body to substances that can cause allergic reactions, immune deficiencies, cancer, etc?? If so, are we really doing the Algarvians a favour?
Gambrinus,
Is it just me, or have the experts failed to defend against the heavy accusations regarding fertilizers and other chemical substances that get flushed into the ground from every golf course??
Good news, there has been since that scabrious bad science "paper" from New York in the early 90's. There was a wake-up call to the golf industry because of that "paper" to start doing some serious science to the perceived anecdotal affects of run-off and leaching which could demonstrate scientifically the real effects golf courses impact on the environment.
Research was performed at leading US agronomic universities doing varied research on a multitude of issues and to date the findings prove very positive in favor of the golf courses.
Research is on-going as is research-development-release into more drought resistant turfgrass species, or grasses with high tolerances for saline-sodic conditions and high temps.
Is it just me, or have the experts failed to defend against the heavy accusations regarding fertilizers and other chemical substances that get flushed into the ground from every golf course??
Good news, there has been since that scabrious bad science "paper" from New York in the early 90's. There was a wake-up call to the golf industry because of that "paper" to start doing some serious science to the perceived anecdotal affects of run-off and leaching which could demonstrate scientifically the real effects golf courses impact on the environment.
Research was performed at leading US agronomic universities doing varied research on a multitude of issues and to date the findings prove very positive in favor of the golf courses.
Research is on-going as is research-development-release into more drought resistant turfgrass species, or grasses with high tolerances for saline-sodic conditions and high temps.
Gambrinus,
How about pest control? The need to keep these vast areas squeaky clean and vermin-free surely requires the application of considerable amounts of pesicides and herbicides.
The leaching and run-off research also included pesticides and herbicides, along with fertilizers and fungicides.
Again all these inputs cost money, so there is only applications of the appropriate amounts to perform the needed task and when needed. Otherwise in £££ terms its money lost, and its not best management practices.
How about pest control? The need to keep these vast areas squeaky clean and vermin-free surely requires the application of considerable amounts of pesicides and herbicides.
The leaching and run-off research also included pesticides and herbicides, along with fertilizers and fungicides.
Again all these inputs cost money, so there is only applications of the appropriate amounts to perform the needed task and when needed. Otherwise in £££ terms its money lost, and its not best management practices.