more on tourist property licences

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:28 pm

When I have contacted the h/o they have always been helpful, but I have to say at times that they appear to have less information than I had already found out? So Martin's above point I believe to be a valid point.

On receiving last year my reminder for subscription.... I was undecided whether or not to renew it. What did really annoy me, was that I received at least 2 reminders via email, a telephone call reminder and also whilst shopping one day yet another reminder via my mobile. Now I did not give my tel/mobile contacts for that purpose and I view such contact as unprofessional and basically being pressurised, at one point during the mobile call, the female said "well you won't be covered on such things as your medical insurance"..i.e. members supposidily get a reduced rate if they are members? I have never actually checked the difference of payment if you are not a member?

Each area has their representative, which can be contacted instead of the h/o..... the former representatives were very good for my area... but unfortunately, they decided to resign..... I cannot speak for their replacements or any other area representative... because I have no knowledge of any of them personally....as far as I am aware.N.R.

Gambrinus · Post by **Gambrinus** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:09 pm

Mexican Pete wrote:Ummmm! So what, if anything, are private owners doing? Have to say that it's anything but clear to me - with so much uncertainty round the subject - what we should be doing!

Good question - I would say there is no correct answer at the moment, as nobody, including the town councils really know which way this is going to swing. It is probably more of a case of "wait and see".

Personally, I have opted to kick off registrations for all my clients with Lagoa council. That way the ball is in their court and my clients are out of the crossfire for the time being. I am aware that this is risking having to do everything twice should the rules change drastically, but I defend the "rather safe than sorry" policy.

However, and this is a point that will cause a lot of people a lot of headaches, I beleive it is time to start thinking about putting affairs sorrounding the property itself in order. Be it for tourist licences or property sales, an illegal pool or slap-on ensuite will soon become a very big thorn in people's sides. The days when camera officials closed both eyes to illegal building activity have come and gone - my guess is, it will only be a matter of time before they clamp down on getting the paperwork out and checking, wether what is on paper corresponds to what stands on the plot - should the tourist licence go through in the format that is currently being discussed, this would actually be something the owners have to do themselves:

This applies to Lagoa council, I have no experience with other councils.
For the licence you need to provide floorplans, location plans, ownership documents, etc. Obviously, if the building is going to be inspected before issuing the licence, these have to coincide with the actual building.
So if there is an illegal part of the property, the first step you would have to take is to have a building planner re-draw the plan according to the actual building and submit this plan to the town council for approval. If the "modifications" are approved, you can process the "alterations" with the respective project and update the building documentation (caderneta and registo). From there you are good to go for the tourist licence.

Should the plans not be approved? I cannot answer that question.

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:22 pm

I could not agree more with the comments made by Gambrinus.
But I have to tell you that I have a friend, who does not let and it's a long story but lets just say "stitched up like a kipper", despite using a professional. With Bruxys help she had been waiting for 11 months with an architect who is well known and was connected to said Camara.... to legalise her property. Finally within the last few days and through the Architect she had to attend the local Camara, where she was asked questions that could have been dealt with easily 11 months ago. The bottom line is, she has now been told that it has to go to the ambiente (her property begin in the countryside). She was told it will take 2 or so months...on experience the "or so months" normally, can turn out to be a period of between 9 -12 months. But normally the delay is not the Ambiente Dept, but the local Camara. We have heard of others cases of much longer than that.

But Gambo is right, the onus is on the owner to ensure that their property is legal together with all documents and this is why sometimes I get cross when people get such problems and they have paid professional people to look after their original purchase etc etc.
Nightrider

tricky · Post by **tricky** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:15 pm

I own an apartment in a small complex that I occasionally rent out.
Does anyone know if it will be down to invidual owners within complex's to apply for the tourism licence or would it be a combined one for the whole complex. I haven't asked my Manager yet, but will do so when I next visit in April, but if I have to put something in operation, I would like to start as soon as possible.

Thanks
Tricky

martin · Post by **martin** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:06 pm

one wonders from this, if all tourist places become licenced, then next it will be back taxes on rentals paid, vat registration, the list is endless

Gambrinus · Post by **Gambrinus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:44 am

tricky wrote:I own an apartment in a small complex that I occasionally rent out.
Does anyone know if it will be down to invidual owners within complex's to apply for the tourism licence or would it be a combined one for the whole complex. I haven't asked my Manager yet, but will do so when I next visit in April, but if I have to put something in operation, I would like to start as soon as possible.

Thanks
Tricky

Individually owned apartments have a separate submission form issued by the local camera so it is safe to assume, seeing that each gas installation has to be certified, etc, that each unit in a complex also has to be inspected separately. As apartments ususally do not fall out of line in terms of building legalities, it may be a good idea to get together with other owners in the same complex who rent out and submit a request for a bulk inspection.

martin wrote:one wonders from this, if all tourist places become licenced, then next it will be back taxes on rentals paid, vat registration, the list is endless

Back taxes will be impossible to implement with the current data that has to be submitted, as they do not request a date when the property will start to be rented out. Unless you have already been trageted by the financas because they have not received any taxes although the property is advertised as beeing rented out, there is no means of them verifying this retrospectively.

Cross-referencing the registration data with the financial record will be childsplay once the system is running properly and all those of you who have duly paid your taxes in the past can breathe a sigh of releif knowing, that all the free-loaders who have been evading taxes for all these years will now get plugged by the finanças for tax evasion if they do not declare after registering their property for rental activity.

Let's be real about one thing - granted the portuguese state (or any other state) is not very good at managing the funds at their disposal, but the tax evasion has contributed substantially to the deficits we see today - tax evasion has been a national sport for decades - this is merely the state trying to level the playing field. Call me idealistic, but I beleive we would all be a bit better off if everyone had payed at least a little bit of tax over the last few dacades.

martin · Post by **martin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:04 am

yes many have no complaints with this registration business if assuming you accept the tenet that everything needs a licence (sorry I dont) ..however what is the biggest problem is that those who want to get a licence cant..they are hindered and hounded by the very beaucrats whose job it is to serve and help

one friend born in Goa (ex portuguese colony) and worked for the civil service in India said all government letters that were sent out there were ended with the words...

"your obediant servant"

here in Portugal as the friend says the beaucrats are not obediant or servants of the people - in fact its the very opposite...people here are obediant to them and are their servants.

so yes if licences are needed. then let it be as easy as getting the annual car tax licence...do you think it will...or are you thinking what Im thinking?

martin · Post by **martin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:09 am

forgot to say I hope you are right with regard to retrospective taxes...from the evidence of those who are now being revisited by the taxman with regard to taxes on offshore transfers may not agree with this view.

the very fact that this 1997 law is NOW being implemented with fines is surely evidence of backdating taxes.

Gambrinus · Post by **Gambrinus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:33 am

martin wrote:
"your obediant servant"

martin wrote: so yes if licences are needed. then let it be as easy as getting the annual car tax licence...do you think it will...or are you thinking what Im thinking?

I have my own thoughts on this and they are probably not in line with what most people are thinking - Why would the richest council in the Algarve hand pick a few companies to fine according to a law that has been dorment for 4 years?? If they needed the money, why did they not just blanket fine everyone in the council? It does not make any sense... this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:37 am

Gambrinus wrote:
Let's be real about one thing - granted the portuguese state (or any other state) is not very good at managing the funds at their disposal, but the tax evasion has contributed substantially to the deficits we see today - tax evasion has been a national sport for decades - this is merely the state trying to level the playing field. Call me idealistic, but I beleive we would all be a bit better off if everyone had payed at least a little bit of tax over the last few dacades.

Gambo,
Ditto...ditto and ditto i.e. I could not agree with you more.
Nightrider

martin · Post by **martin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:50 am

if the govt here are so short of cash, they should take care that in their efforts to get their "pound of flesh", they dont inflict a mortal wound on the tourist industry.

history is littered with examples of taxes being charged which caused problems....look at the British in America, I wonder how richer Britain would be now if they had kept the American collonies for a longer period of time, but no they lost them for what ..a few pennies tax on tea!

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:03 am

Gambrinus wrote:
martin wrote: "your obediant servant"

martin wrote: so yes if licences are needed. then let it be as easy as getting the annual car tax licence...do you think it will...or are you thinking what Im thinking?
I have my own thoughts on this and they are probably not in line with what most people are thinking - Why would the richest council in the Algarve hand pick a few companies to fine according to a law that has been dorment for 4 years?? If they needed the money, why did they not just blanket fine everyone in the council? It does not make any sense... this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I know it is going off thread a little, but I wonder how many are aware that after submitting a planning application, if you do not receive a reply from the local Camara within 60days you can commence. I asked an Architect who just happened to have been a former vice president of a Camara...." Does the law still exsist whereby if you have not received a reply to a planning application within 60days you can commenced to build"? His reply was "that the law still exsists, but if anybody did commence a construction without a planning licence, they would be stopped and any Camara would implement the agrument that they were to busy to have dealt with the application"? Have they never heard of an acknowlegement card displaying pre-printed words on it such as "Thank you for your application it is being dealt with".

Why oh why do they make life so difficult for everybody inclusive of themselves

Do you think that the saying the "Right Hand Does Not Know What the Left hand is doing" is applicable here in Portugal........in otherwords the Central Government makes the Legislation but at local level they either do not understand what is going on or it suits them nicely to choose not to understand at the right moment:?:

martin · Post by **martin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:26 pm

I see its also front page on "the news"this week.

wonder if AFPOP have anything on their site...would be very surprised!

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:37 pm

nightrider wrote:Mike,
As a registered member, I double checked their site and could find no information. So a moment ago I telephoned AFPOP and they very kindly told me, that the situation is at the moment that Albuferia, are already issuing a 15 page document, which explains exactly what you require to gain a licence.
As far as they are aware they believe that Lagoa is close also to issuing same.
They also said that they too have read the article with regard to Portugal's Central Government's pending meeting (as mentioned above).
Regards N.R.

Martin does this answer the question.N.R.

martin · Post by **martin** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:54 pm

yes read it earlier, just thought with three front page articles this week, the afpop site might have something to say or coment to make