Fiscal representatives for non residents

astrid · Post by **astrid** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:19 am

Dear all,

I would like to learn more about fiscal representation in Portugal.

Home owners in Portugal, who are NOT residing in Portugal now need
to give the tax office the name of a fiscal respresentative (this is needed
for paying the "rates" and eventual income tax) .

- What is your experience with this?

- Who can act as a fiscal representative in Portugal?
Can it be a friend, a neighbor?
or does it need to be a solicitor or a registered company?

- What are the going costs for fiscal representation?
(and I don't mean filling in your tax form).
In other words:
can one find a reliable fiscal representative without being "skinned alive"?

- What responsibilities does the fiscal representative have?

Looking forward to hearing from you!

*Astrid*

biffa · Post by **biffa** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:33 am

There is obviously some confusion about this so perhaps Steen will permit some information on the "Financial Section"? I´ll get it posted today if he agrees.

Mike,Chislehurst · Post by **Mike,Chislehurst** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:58 am

Our tax returns are submitted by Sovereign and the tax demand is sent to our lawyer in Lagoa. He charged about 45 euros for handling it and they were the only charges he made during 2005. Hope this helps

astrid · Post by **astrid** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:23 am

Dear Mike,

Thanks a lot for your reply!

I contacted Sovereign yestserday, to enquire about their rates
for this service.

For >non-residents< they ask for 270 Euros per year for fiscal
representation (which includes filling in and submitting your tax form) plus
225 Euros as an initial registration fee, if I understood correctly.
In any case, its a lot more expensive than just 45 Euros.
And I find it too expensive!

My portuguese accountant only charges me 25 Euros per year
to fill in my tax forms but she unfortunately cannot act as my
fiscal representative.

with best regards,

*astrid*

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:10 pm

Hi Astrid,
I was going to post, but I have just noticed that Biffa is dealing with it and therefore, best left with him and his skills in this field.
Sovereign in Lagoa, I am aware are a very sound company to deal with together with their fees being fair.
Regards
Nightrider

biffa · Post by **biffa** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:28 pm

Thanks Nightrider - we do our best! It seems that Astrid has misunderstood what was quoted and I understand she will be contacted by the person concerned to clarify it.

I don't wish to get involved on this Forum in fee quotes or business touting but the duties of fiscal representative are not to be taken lightly and presumably that is why the accountant does not sih to become involved - certauinly not at 25 Euros anyway! Certainly anyone acting as fiscal rep would want to ensure that any tax return was being correctly completed and submitted so in cases where we act as fiscal rep we also insist on dealing with those returns.

I think that, as with most things, you get what you pay for and if you opt for a cheap service then that is what you get.

I hope we can help Astrid and always try to give fair rates - especially for Cvo.com Forum members.

astrid · Post by **astrid** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:31 pm

Thanks Biffa,

It's true that one pays for what one gets, but it's also good
to get information, shop around and compare

that encourages competition and excellence.

In any case, I'll really be looking forward to any posting
on the financial section about this, as the new laws are
somewhat confusing:
(see for example the article in Portuguese on
www.bsgg.pt/Artigos/2005 "os riscos da representacao fiscal" )

With best regards,

*astrid*

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:33 am

I also found Sovereign not only expensive but (For me) ..and I also dont wish to get into brash statements ....other than to say I wasnt satisfied with their service.
My Lawyer has now done this for me for the last two years...(Fiscal representation) Free of Charge......and I havnt acually used him for the last 5 years since I bought my house....Good service indeed and yes I will use them again on my nxt purchase nxt year...

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:57 pm

Hi Guest,
Horses for Courses i.e. Lawyers for Legal Matters, Accountants for Financial matters. I have to say that I find it somewhat strange that you state that your lawyer is "carrying out the same service" but makes no charge

Can you therefore, explain exactly what your lawyer is doing for you and more so if he/she is indeed carrying out the exact "same" work

If so please... I implore you..... annouce on this forum your lawyer's name and whereabouts, so that the rest of us can use your lawyer and therefore, gain his/her services for as you say Free of Charge.

Personally, I reiterate my above comments Horses for Courses etc etc.
Look forward to hearing from you in anticipation .Many Thanks

Nightrider

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:20 pm

Its quite simple...My lawyer is my fiscal representative and each year calls me up and asks me to pay the rates.after they rcv the paper work ..they do all the paperwork and end of story...no charge....many Lawyers do this having made a little money with the house sale etc..just good service for what is a very simple job....I wont give their name because every Tom and Dick will be down there asking for something for nothing...which is not the case really because we bought our Villa through them some years ago....all I will say is that their ( New Office) is on the way out of Carvoeiro).....

Guest2 · Post by **Guest2** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:03 pm

As a non resident property owner who does not rent out, and therefore has no income in Portugal, my lawyer is also my fiscal rep. She does not charge anything other than her original fee when we purchased. Her function is to meet the legal requirement. This does not actually involve her doing anything since I take care of everything myself

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:59 pm

Anonymous wrote:Its quite simple...My lawyer is my fiscal representative and each year calls me up and asks me to pay the rates.after they rcv the paper work ..they do all the paperwork and end of story...no charge....many Lawyers do this having made a little money with the house sale etc..just good service for what is a very simple job....I wont give their name because every Tom and Dick will be down there asking for something for nothing...which is not the case really because we bought our Villa through them some years ago....all I will say is that their ( New Office) is on the way out of Carvoeiro).....

Let me begin if I may with my reply to you as follows: I once said to a lawyer who happened to be a neighbour "that English speaking, Portuguese or any other nationality would dearly love to have in the Algarve/Portugal a Citizens Advice Bureau that we have in the UK"....and the reply was that it would be shut down

As I understand it and please believe me when I say that I and my family have had to learn the hard way since arriving in the Algarve.....Resident or non resident are obliged by law to have a Fiscal Representive in Portugal... so Guest by what you say, you are non resident, your not in anyway in business and/or do not let your property or purchased your property through an offshore company... therefore, are not completing a Portuguese Tax Return. Your lawyer's office being used soley as a mail box for rates..... merely forwarding on your Rates Bills.....as you state as a non resident your lawyer rings you up in the UK in order for him to receive monies to pay your rates bill.....as I said above you sound extremely lucky...because as far as I am aware there has always been a charge for this service be they a lawyer or anyone else.If resident you can also submit your own Tax Returns, but unless you speak fluent Portuguese and are prepared to fight your way through a mine field of complicated paperwork, personally, I would rather use someone as I said before like Sovereign in Lagoa.
You cannot legally purchase a property in Portugal without first receiving a Portuguese Fiscal Card and that number never changes.... same as your equivalent with the UK's IR Department and remember that Portugal and UK have a double taxation agreement and you are obliged to declare your holiday home on your UK Tax Return.(World assets etc)

I am afraid that I cannot agree with you that "all" lawyers make little money on the buying and selling of property here in the Portugal. Like any profession you are always going to get the rotten apples and people like your lawyer who appears by what you say to be a true professional no doubt his pocket is not as full as it should be because of "some" of his very greedy collegues. As you have brought the matter up of lawyers receiving very little etc., Are you aware that here in Portugal we have been advised by our lawyers in Lisboa that a lawyer on behalf of a client cannot make a complaint to his regulatory body about a collegue who has not conducting himself in a professional way and more so has caused actual lost and much more etc .Of course a complaint can be made by an individual to the Ordem dos Advogados and if serious enough to other government departments.

As you have raised this matter of how little lawyers receive from their dealings in the selling and purchasing of property.... A lawyer has to declare to the Ordem dos Advogados the office he/she is working from both as an individual lawyer working on his own and if more in the same office and working together as associates. There is a seperate Public Information listing for both an Individual lawyer and/or Associates.
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... D%26sa%3DG
Further example a lawyer's office is listed in one area... but sets up an office elsewhere whose to know:?: ...and which as we understand it unlike..... England & Wales, Scotland & Nth Ireland.... who have to publicly list their main office and all branch offices...... in order for their area branch office to regulate those who are registered and practising in their particular area .....and also of course for Tax purpose... all of which would appear is not a requirement of Portugal

... so here of course is the loophole.... which appears ripe for "some" who wish to abuse the system. However, it is understood that Portugal's Central Government are really now getting to grips fast ..... and closing all these loopholes. I do agree...that all the decent lawyers like the one you are using, must be absolutely fed up with their office being correctly registered with their above regulatory body and carrying out their work from it correctly..... but in the knowledge that their livilhood is being affected by their own collegues...... who are registered in a different area, but operating perhaps in their neck of the wood. I suspect that other businesses who conduct themselves correctly paying their taxes/rates and obeying the various rules and regulations such as Estate Agents, Car Hire, Villa Rental & Management etc etc, are also fed up with all the Cowboys which give them and their businesses a bad name.As I said before it would be unfair to tar all with the same brush.
Yes you have highlighted a very good issue and finally, as for your lawyer I believe that I know him, his wife and additional, however, I will leave it up to you, if you wish to post the details.
Regards
Nightrider

Spam Man · Post by **Spam Man** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:00 pm

RFdRF ?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:28 pm

Dear Nightrider & guests & all,

thanks for your replies. I find it really quite interesting that there seem
to be such large differences in the prices for the same service
(of fiscal representation). It seems that it's a kind of uncharted territory
still, since some do it for practically nothing and others ask
hundreds of euros.

I see that the population of non-resident (small scale) property owners
is rather vulnerable and can easily be squeezed like lemons.

We are not in Portugal for most of the year, many of us don't understand
Portuguese well enough to cope with legal and financial regulations and
the Portuguese government does defend nor care particularly
about our interests, despite the fact that we pump a lot of money into the
local ecomomy. We don't get access to official infomation easily.
Because of the language barrier, many of us seek help from
business people who speak our own language, so,
usually non-Portuguese. And these business people are not necessarily
all out here doing charity work.

Please, keep on sharing your experiences to all about
fiscal representation, its price and its meaning.
I'm eager to hear more... for example :
has anybody used a "solicitador" for this (rather than an "advogado")?
And again, how much did you pay for this service?

With best regards,

*astrid*

astrid · Post by **astrid** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:31 pm

I had forgotten to log-on, sorry...

*astrid*