PORTUGAL To cut Deficit

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:11 am

Headline in Portugal News,
EU ministers have agreed to impliment procedures against Portugal if it does not cut its deficit to agreed targets 3% by 2008.
As vat has increased to 21% and along with the rest of Europe manufacturing is in decline.

What else can they do other than raise taxes ???

Gambrinus · Post by **Gambrinus** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:32 am

ummmm...."spend less money" comes to mind. Certainly spend less money on silly things.

How about making a public service bonus system that is performance oriented? The more customers you satisfy, and the more files you get through, the more money you get at the end of the day. Inversly, if you spend the whole day chatting and sending people away, you get the minimum wage. My guess is that would result in less red tape and make half of this countries civil servants obsolete.

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:05 am

Do you rember how we did it, cut public services, cut number of civil servants ( not this government ) cut public expenditure, raised taxes and interest rates.

Ended up with 3million unemployed.

It could be said by some , who know far maore about economics than I do that the pain was worth it as the UK has one of the healthiest economies in europe.

Does not say much for the others then.

Is Portugal prepared for the Pain.

Bruxinha · Post by **Bruxinha** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:24 am

I think I wrote the other day what I read last week. The World Bank did a study on various european countries in the EU (the old member countries) and they concluded that if Portugal got rid of its endemic corruption and bureaucracy and everyone paid the right taxes instead of dodging them, then Portugal could have an economy on par with Finland instead of being the poorest of the old member countries.

I hope you are managing to get invoices (facturas) with IVA for all the work your builder is doing, as normally that is like trying to "get blood out of a stone" here in the Algarve.

ALL people, who work for you should provide facturas with their NIF number on, dentist, doctor, plumber, lawyer, shop owner, carpenter etc etc etc. If everyone put "more or less" the right money into the coffers of Portugal then who knows where Portugal could go. Will it happen? Not unless there is a radical overhaul of government; local and national and people's attitudes change.

Bruxinha · Post by **Bruxinha** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:58 am

Actually as an aside to the above, I believe that a builder in Portugal cannot employ people to work for him/her unless he not only has an Alvará but is also a limited company (LDA). I suppose the ones that aren't lda's and have people working for them will say that all their workers are self-employed and in any case get paid cash in hand.

I knew a builder here, who bragged to me how he didn't possess one plastic card i.e. only worked in cash! I gave him a crossed cheque once and he nearly fainted...can you sign the back he begged

I know cash in hand is also common in most countries for a lot of builders, but everyone wants to go down that path here in Portugal and some of the worst culprits are the professionals, so only the poor and those in contrated jobs pay anything it seems.

Anyway, if each and every one of us insisted on getting a factura and paying the IVA for what we buy and the services we receive it might help a little

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:18 am

Bulders. plumbers. electricians etc are the same the world over.

" Cash in hand " is the universal language.
Spain whoose economy appears healthier than Portugal has it is said one of the worlds largest " black " economies. It fuelled their pre euro boom as the pesetas under the bed had to be spent or " accounted for " nor where they too chosy where the money ( roubles/dollars ) came from.

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:20 am

[quote="tbbr"]

What else can they do other than raise taxes ???

TBBR. With respect if you lived here in the Algarve, frankly, you would not ask such a question.

Brief example and here we go again. We pay a considerable amount of Rates/Taxes for our villa. Opposite our home are two illegale holiday homes. Both pay not a bean and so it goes on and yes the local authourity is well aware of the situation and I suppose after 10yrs there is no doubt some rule for "usage rights" or whatever. Why should the rest of us pay for those who contribute not one sue.

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:29 am

We pay, rates, EDP, water etc on our apartment all the forms for which were completed at the time of purchase.

Are you saying that it is possible then to erect an illegal building, connected to mains and services , receive water, rubbish collection etc and pay very little if anything.

If that is the case starting to see the problem, which might explain why central government is auditing councils ( Silves & Lagoa ).

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:41 am

[quote="tbbr"]We pay, rates, EDP, water etc on our apartment all the forms for which were completed at the time of purchase.

Got it in one.

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:53 am

nightrider wrote:
tbbr wrote:We pay, rates, EDP, water etc on our apartment all the forms for which were completed at the time of purchase.

Got it in one.

Not so easy in predominantly Urban areas, but as an example in a rural area.

Electricity:

Is gained via an application for a temporary meter (contractor's meter) in connection with alleged "agricultural" work or a meter for alleged argicultural produce etc. Electricity of course required for pumping water. (Look for a fridge alongside the contractor's meter this is a good sign something is not quite right)

Water:

An illegal holding tank is put in "under" the ground and water is either shipped in or a private and quiet (of course) agreement with a neighbour to buy water etc.

Sewage,

We do not even want to go there.

Post,

A box at the post office.

TBBR. I sincerely hope that the above answers your questions.

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:12 am

So this is how the " brits " living in mobile homes do it then ??

nightrider · Post by **nightrider** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:27 pm

[quote="tbbr"]So this is how the " brits " living in mobile homes do it then ??[/

TBBR,

Having little knowledge of that which you describe except of course their design, it would be of course not correct for me to make a comment and I can confirm that I was not refering to "MOBILE" dwellings and whatever their owners not doubt of all "nationality" may or may not be up to

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:38 pm

My comment re mobile homes came out of reports ( see archive Algarve resident ) of a rash of these appearing in the west much to the annoyance of local residents like yourself who " conform ".
Its not just illegal builders who abuse the system.

digger · Post by **digger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:52 pm

tbbr wrote:.........What else can they do other than raise taxes ???

they could do nothing, like France and Germany do. ….. two countries that are no better than Portugal when it comes to hitting these EU targets .....

denniscash · Post by **denniscash** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:00 pm

they could stop stealing money from the people and from tax accounts.. this is still the main problem down here... the money flows in different hands and majority of it gets lost once it reaches the final spot... how much do you think has the EU invested in developing Portugal to what it is right now.. and still right now you see stupid things happening, like building a road for 2 years, or ripping a relatively new MAIN road in Albufeira and building it again... the camaras take money, the main administration takes money, the governmental chamber takes money, and then the politicians together with the government claim it from EU in double the amount whats needed... this is really obvious... and you are asking what will happen next? the country has another 20 years ahead untill it is completely "mature"...

sorry for hard words, but my opinion is still the same..

tks

PORTUGAL To cut Deficit

PORTUGAL To cut Deficit

Re: PORTUGAL To cut Deficit

Re: PORTUGAL To cut Deficit