|Home| Info| Community| Business| Beaches| What to do?| Rentals| News| Forum| Blogs| Finance| History| FAQ| Contact|
Portugal killing itself
-
ANDY
- CVO Senior
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 8:09 pm
- Location: Vale de milho carvoeiro
- Contact:
Portugal killing itself
Portugal killing itself
Created on Thursday, 29 September 2011 21:55
Occassionally a reader's letter is published. The following missive crystalises many of the thoughts we have all had from time to time...
'It is impossible for Portugal to get out of this recession, the reason why is because you need the Portuguese people to do it, but they cannot, because their hands and feet are tied with so many silly rules and licenses.
There will be no new major Portuguese companies in the future because they will be strangled at birth, the Goverment burden them with so many rules and regulations and licenses, they just give up, and the sad thing is that there is no need for 90% of these rules and regulations, its just a way for the Goverment to get fines out of you, they don't seem to understand the big picture of the free market, only the petty fines of annoyance to the companies, then they finish for good.
You have 2 million Portuguese, 1/5th of the population, under medical treatment for depression and 85% of these are between the age 30-50, the time in life when you are trying so hard to get somewhere, children through school, buying a house, running a business, and the Goverment is resposible for this situation of destroying their own citizens' lives with so much no needed strangulation rules.
Example. Why do you need a license to advertise your business on your van at so much per word? You have thousands and thousands of company vans on the road and nobody knows what they do, not good for
business. Why also do you have to write out a list of what you carry in your van?
I see the police emptying out vans on the roadside checking these lists very often 4 vans at a time, each van is held up for 30 minutes.
So for the polices 6 hour shift stopping 4 vans at a time is a total of 24 hours lost work time, 3 days, for the van drivers, plus late deliveries, for the polices 6 hour shift. Not good for the economy, and for what reason other than annoying folks and getting fines? It cannot be for drugs or arms because a dog can sniff them out in seconds.
Also Portugals most important trade, tourism, they have totally wrecked, with new rules and licenses, holiday home owners are selling up and leaving Portugal for ever; 8000 British families in the past 12 months.
What the Goverment do not seem to understand is, that one British family just living here not even working puts more money into the economy than probably 20 portuguese families working. And the British family has relatives and friends coming to Portugal for holidays and bringing much needed fresh money to Portugal, and especially today in a recession thats what Portugal needs most, fresh money coming into the country.
Folks who buy holiday homes here or come to retire from another county should be given medals not burdened with all the silly rules and licenses the Goverment put on them just to scrounge a little money, and because of that they lose millions of fresh money to the economy.
One example on how much they are losing, one holiday company in the UK had 3600 private holiday villas and apartments on their books, and after the new rules the goverment brought out, the following year they had 249 left on their books, talk about shooting yourself in the foot, billions now lost since these rules came out.
Because of this Portugal, with the loss of tourisim income, was going downhill rapidly long before they had a chance to blame the banks. China had the same problems all through their communist years, impossible for the man on the street to succeed, and then they went into HongKong saw how happy and rich folks were, so they took a look at the Hongkong blueprint on how they succeeded and copied it all over China and throughout the world, and now have become one of the most successfull countries in the world.
And what would have Portugal done if they saw that same blue print, nothing, because its not the Portuguse way. This is one of the main problems with the Portuguse Goverment, they have to invent everything themselves to make it purely Portuguese. They will not learn from other countries who are successfull, and of course when they think they have invented something it is something that has been tried and tested and failed in other countries 200-300 years ago.
Also, a major factor to the recession in Portugal is the way Camaras work throughout the country. Why does it take months, sometimes years, to get these 'must have' licenses and permissions to do things. The amount of money totally wasted by folks wanting to run perfectly legal businesses, but waiting for permission to do so. I have known many proposed companies that have not bothered to start up because of the frustration of the stupidity and lazyness of the 'you cannot sack us' brigade who work in Govermental and Camara departments.
Remember, Portugal had a revoloution because the citizens did not want to be ruled by Nazis, Communists or dictators, and what have you ended up with? Thousands of dictators in every Goverment and Camara departments throughout the land. Now they are crying because they might get a 5% pay cut because of the recession, I say a lot of them deserve a 50% pay cut for the damage they have done to their own country. The main trouble is that they will continue to operate the way they do because the citizens of Portugal are to afraid to complain in case their name goes on some sort of blacklist which will damage their chance of getting permission to do something in the future.
And now we have a new Goverment, and how are they going to get Portugal out of this mess? Excactly the same as the last Goverment, more licenses to get more fines and of course tax rises which is the most stupid move of all. Everyone knows throughout the world the more you put tax up the less you collect because folks will work harder to looking for ways of not paying tax, the black economy grows rapidly.
The silly system they are about to bring out on the cross border scut motorways, guaranteed to damage the economy. Who in their right mind would want to pop over from Spain for a day or weekend in Portugal if they have got to mess around renting some device to use the motorway? If 100 or 200 drivers come into Portugal at the same time there is going to be an awful wait trying to rent a unit, and later, the hassle of taking it back to get your 50€ plus 27€ rental charge back, especially on a Sunday night when returning along with maybe 1000 other drivers. They will never return, which has just been proven on the cross border tolls in the north of Portugal.
SO WHAT CAN BE DONE TO GET PORTUGAL OUT OF THIS MESS?
1. No member of the public should have to wait any longer than 15 minutes to be served by any Goverment or Camara department, all departments are overstaffed anyway.
2.There are millions of properties in portugal that do not have a habitation licence and are not on the tax radar. Have an anmesty to register them.
3.Have a tax amnesty, for all those who have been evading tax for years and who still are. Give them a chance to come clean now and start paying their tax normally in the future. They will probably gain 25% in tax revenue which will be cheaper than trying to chase money for back taxes and also more profitable. All countries that have done this have been pleasantly surprised by the results.
4.Do not put IVA up to 25%. Drop IVA to 15% and let everyone with a fiscal number be allowed to claim 20% of their IVA back up to 1000€ without being registered for IVA every November. Extra money for a Christmas spending spree to boost shops, but the most important of this measure is that everyone will be asking for their facturas on everything, and businesses will have to declare their correct turnover, which will increase tax revenues by 40-60% because the black market in Portugal is mega.
5. Get the police to do more crime fighting and less mugging of motorists with petty hold ups of comercial transport, this is costing the country millions in work time.
6. And if you drop IVA to 15% you will get a lot of cross border trade from Spain, and save thousands of busineses within 50 kilometres of the border from going bankrupt like they are now and putting many thousands of Portuguese out of work. For this to work you will have to forget these silly tolls on cross boarder motorways, it will only cause restrictions on folks visiting Portugal.
7. Let owners from another country let their villas and apartments like they did in the past without all these new silly rules and regulations.
7. Very important, to pay the debts you have to have growth, which you will never get with all the strangulation licences you have in place
OK, so will the Goverment dare to do any of the above? NO, because no one, especially someone who is not Portuguese, can tell the Portuguse how to do things, no matter how much they have their interest at heart. They will do it their way, right or wrong, but one can only keep trying.
Lord Blore.
With my best regards,
Kiki Batchelor
Administration Manager
PREMIER PROTECT
Bespoke Business Solutions
Created on Thursday, 29 September 2011 21:55
Occassionally a reader's letter is published. The following missive crystalises many of the thoughts we have all had from time to time...
'It is impossible for Portugal to get out of this recession, the reason why is because you need the Portuguese people to do it, but they cannot, because their hands and feet are tied with so many silly rules and licenses.
There will be no new major Portuguese companies in the future because they will be strangled at birth, the Goverment burden them with so many rules and regulations and licenses, they just give up, and the sad thing is that there is no need for 90% of these rules and regulations, its just a way for the Goverment to get fines out of you, they don't seem to understand the big picture of the free market, only the petty fines of annoyance to the companies, then they finish for good.
You have 2 million Portuguese, 1/5th of the population, under medical treatment for depression and 85% of these are between the age 30-50, the time in life when you are trying so hard to get somewhere, children through school, buying a house, running a business, and the Goverment is resposible for this situation of destroying their own citizens' lives with so much no needed strangulation rules.
Example. Why do you need a license to advertise your business on your van at so much per word? You have thousands and thousands of company vans on the road and nobody knows what they do, not good for
business. Why also do you have to write out a list of what you carry in your van?
I see the police emptying out vans on the roadside checking these lists very often 4 vans at a time, each van is held up for 30 minutes.
So for the polices 6 hour shift stopping 4 vans at a time is a total of 24 hours lost work time, 3 days, for the van drivers, plus late deliveries, for the polices 6 hour shift. Not good for the economy, and for what reason other than annoying folks and getting fines? It cannot be for drugs or arms because a dog can sniff them out in seconds.
Also Portugals most important trade, tourism, they have totally wrecked, with new rules and licenses, holiday home owners are selling up and leaving Portugal for ever; 8000 British families in the past 12 months.
What the Goverment do not seem to understand is, that one British family just living here not even working puts more money into the economy than probably 20 portuguese families working. And the British family has relatives and friends coming to Portugal for holidays and bringing much needed fresh money to Portugal, and especially today in a recession thats what Portugal needs most, fresh money coming into the country.
Folks who buy holiday homes here or come to retire from another county should be given medals not burdened with all the silly rules and licenses the Goverment put on them just to scrounge a little money, and because of that they lose millions of fresh money to the economy.
One example on how much they are losing, one holiday company in the UK had 3600 private holiday villas and apartments on their books, and after the new rules the goverment brought out, the following year they had 249 left on their books, talk about shooting yourself in the foot, billions now lost since these rules came out.
Because of this Portugal, with the loss of tourisim income, was going downhill rapidly long before they had a chance to blame the banks. China had the same problems all through their communist years, impossible for the man on the street to succeed, and then they went into HongKong saw how happy and rich folks were, so they took a look at the Hongkong blueprint on how they succeeded and copied it all over China and throughout the world, and now have become one of the most successfull countries in the world.
And what would have Portugal done if they saw that same blue print, nothing, because its not the Portuguse way. This is one of the main problems with the Portuguse Goverment, they have to invent everything themselves to make it purely Portuguese. They will not learn from other countries who are successfull, and of course when they think they have invented something it is something that has been tried and tested and failed in other countries 200-300 years ago.
Also, a major factor to the recession in Portugal is the way Camaras work throughout the country. Why does it take months, sometimes years, to get these 'must have' licenses and permissions to do things. The amount of money totally wasted by folks wanting to run perfectly legal businesses, but waiting for permission to do so. I have known many proposed companies that have not bothered to start up because of the frustration of the stupidity and lazyness of the 'you cannot sack us' brigade who work in Govermental and Camara departments.
Remember, Portugal had a revoloution because the citizens did not want to be ruled by Nazis, Communists or dictators, and what have you ended up with? Thousands of dictators in every Goverment and Camara departments throughout the land. Now they are crying because they might get a 5% pay cut because of the recession, I say a lot of them deserve a 50% pay cut for the damage they have done to their own country. The main trouble is that they will continue to operate the way they do because the citizens of Portugal are to afraid to complain in case their name goes on some sort of blacklist which will damage their chance of getting permission to do something in the future.
And now we have a new Goverment, and how are they going to get Portugal out of this mess? Excactly the same as the last Goverment, more licenses to get more fines and of course tax rises which is the most stupid move of all. Everyone knows throughout the world the more you put tax up the less you collect because folks will work harder to looking for ways of not paying tax, the black economy grows rapidly.
The silly system they are about to bring out on the cross border scut motorways, guaranteed to damage the economy. Who in their right mind would want to pop over from Spain for a day or weekend in Portugal if they have got to mess around renting some device to use the motorway? If 100 or 200 drivers come into Portugal at the same time there is going to be an awful wait trying to rent a unit, and later, the hassle of taking it back to get your 50€ plus 27€ rental charge back, especially on a Sunday night when returning along with maybe 1000 other drivers. They will never return, which has just been proven on the cross border tolls in the north of Portugal.
SO WHAT CAN BE DONE TO GET PORTUGAL OUT OF THIS MESS?
1. No member of the public should have to wait any longer than 15 minutes to be served by any Goverment or Camara department, all departments are overstaffed anyway.
2.There are millions of properties in portugal that do not have a habitation licence and are not on the tax radar. Have an anmesty to register them.
3.Have a tax amnesty, for all those who have been evading tax for years and who still are. Give them a chance to come clean now and start paying their tax normally in the future. They will probably gain 25% in tax revenue which will be cheaper than trying to chase money for back taxes and also more profitable. All countries that have done this have been pleasantly surprised by the results.
4.Do not put IVA up to 25%. Drop IVA to 15% and let everyone with a fiscal number be allowed to claim 20% of their IVA back up to 1000€ without being registered for IVA every November. Extra money for a Christmas spending spree to boost shops, but the most important of this measure is that everyone will be asking for their facturas on everything, and businesses will have to declare their correct turnover, which will increase tax revenues by 40-60% because the black market in Portugal is mega.
5. Get the police to do more crime fighting and less mugging of motorists with petty hold ups of comercial transport, this is costing the country millions in work time.
6. And if you drop IVA to 15% you will get a lot of cross border trade from Spain, and save thousands of busineses within 50 kilometres of the border from going bankrupt like they are now and putting many thousands of Portuguese out of work. For this to work you will have to forget these silly tolls on cross boarder motorways, it will only cause restrictions on folks visiting Portugal.
7. Let owners from another country let their villas and apartments like they did in the past without all these new silly rules and regulations.
7. Very important, to pay the debts you have to have growth, which you will never get with all the strangulation licences you have in place
OK, so will the Goverment dare to do any of the above? NO, because no one, especially someone who is not Portuguese, can tell the Portuguse how to do things, no matter how much they have their interest at heart. They will do it their way, right or wrong, but one can only keep trying.
Lord Blore.
With my best regards,
Kiki Batchelor
Administration Manager
PREMIER PROTECT
Bespoke Business Solutions
Re: Portugal killing itself
I can't disagree with any of that !!
Re: Portugal killing itself
I do not think that any of us with a passing knowledge of business and beaurocracy in Portugal would disagree.
But the average Portuguese in Lisbon or Porto probably cares very little for the needs of Expats or the Algarve tourist and construction industries.
Portugal has many similarities to the UK in the 70,s, we were a stagnating country with declining inefficient industries which could not compete globally.
It took a radical ( Maggie Thatcher ) to drag the UK back into the real world, what ever else we we may think about her .
The political struture in Portugal is unlikely if ever to produce an individual or party that could gather enough popular support to force through change on the requred scale.
In effect we have to " take it or leave it " , if I were Portuguese to constantly read the moans and complaints of expats ( however justified ) would not endear me to them.
As for VAT, tax levels etc remember that Portugal no longer has control of its finances, the Troika is in control.
But the average Portuguese in Lisbon or Porto probably cares very little for the needs of Expats or the Algarve tourist and construction industries.
Portugal has many similarities to the UK in the 70,s, we were a stagnating country with declining inefficient industries which could not compete globally.
It took a radical ( Maggie Thatcher ) to drag the UK back into the real world, what ever else we we may think about her .
The political struture in Portugal is unlikely if ever to produce an individual or party that could gather enough popular support to force through change on the requred scale.
In effect we have to " take it or leave it " , if I were Portuguese to constantly read the moans and complaints of expats ( however justified ) would not endear me to them.
As for VAT, tax levels etc remember that Portugal no longer has control of its finances, the Troika is in control.
Re: Portugal killing itself
So the only answer may be to leave the Euro !!EMM wrote:
As for VAT, tax levels etc remember that Portugal no longer has control of its finances, the Troika is in control.
-
Michael Crane
- CVO Oracle
- Posts: 11216
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:51 pm
- Location: Lincoln
- Contact:
Re: Portugal killing itself
Just imagine the furore if 'ex-pats' in the UK voiced similar opinions. Some people aren't happy no matter where they reside. They leave the UK (but not its benefits including winter fuel allowanceEMM wrote:.....In effect we have to " take it or leave it " , if I were Portuguese to constantly read the moans and complaints of expats ( however justified ) would not endear me to them.....
) set up home in Portugal, then moan about Portugal! No matter who or what you are, you are guests in another country, if you can't 'fit in' or you want a little slice of the UK in the sun, perhaps you're there for the wrong reasons. Many ex-pats are very well off by Portuguese standards: detached villas with pools, two or more cars, dine out in restaurants on a regular basis; a life style most Portuguese dream off. When such 'rich' folk complain about their adopted country I'm sure it thoroughly pees off the Portuguese man in the street, big time.I have friends living fulltime in Turkey who have to leave their homes every few months and leave the country to renew their visas. Imagine if Portugal made all ex-pats apply for a renewal visa! Now that would be something to moan about!
Re: Portugal killing itself
Portugal is in the shite and so I would have thought any constructive advice would be welcomed. The letter quoted here is not a moan - it is a statement of the problems and how possibly to put things right. I can't imagine there are many Portuguese who are happy with the current situation and I'm sure they all want a solution. I'll bet anything that their main beef is being dictated to by the Germans!
-
jamielyon4
- CVO Senior
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:51 pm
- Location: St Helens, www.montecarvoeiro.com
- Contact:
Re: Portugal killing itself
Michael and Cereza make good points here
The politics involved with trying to move forward is a real barrier to progress for the ex pat and nationls be it related to property or business. MC's comments make me smile as they are so true 'its the glass half empty' brigade with naff all else to do but moan.
They may all be in the shite but they still take the 2 hour lunch for a visit to the local restaurant everyday not something I would encourage nor do if the axe was hovering over my neck and my funds being cut
The politics involved with trying to move forward is a real barrier to progress for the ex pat and nationls be it related to property or business. MC's comments make me smile as they are so true 'its the glass half empty' brigade with naff all else to do but moan.
They may all be in the shite but they still take the 2 hour lunch for a visit to the local restaurant everyday not something I would encourage nor do if the axe was hovering over my neck and my funds being cut
Re: Portugal killing itself
If you are unemployed or living on a basic minimum wage how much sympathy would you have for expats or tourists complaining about the rise in VAT on golf, or a reduction in the rules regarding the importation of cars or for expats setting up expat business. to serve an expat market.
Dropping the Euro without other major structural changes would just be plastering over the cracks.
For Portugal to change, the Portuguese voter and Portuguese business communities have to unite against the inertia that currently rules and is accepted in almost every aspect of life.
How many Portuguese read these forums or the local english language press ??
I would like to hear their reaction to the letter and how they believe change can be made.
Dropping the Euro without other major structural changes would just be plastering over the cracks.
For Portugal to change, the Portuguese voter and Portuguese business communities have to unite against the inertia that currently rules and is accepted in almost every aspect of life.
How many Portuguese read these forums or the local english language press ??
I would like to hear their reaction to the letter and how they believe change can be made.
Re: Portugal killing itself
great post Andy.
some of the rules in Portugal appear bizarre to say the least. As for 25%, VAT, crazy. Portuguese will do all their shopping in Spain. and if the rate applies to electricity it will leave a lot of Portuguese families struggling with their electricity bill. And it is the German paymasters who are imposing this, as we found out in Ireland this week when the German lower house debated the Irish budget and announced that we would have a 23% VAT rate next year - even though Ireland's budget is not due until December!!
some of the rules in Portugal appear bizarre to say the least. As for 25%, VAT, crazy. Portuguese will do all their shopping in Spain. and if the rate applies to electricity it will leave a lot of Portuguese families struggling with their electricity bill. And it is the German paymasters who are imposing this, as we found out in Ireland this week when the German lower house debated the Irish budget and announced that we would have a 23% VAT rate next year - even though Ireland's budget is not due until December!!
only because Turkey is not in the EU, if they were they could not impose this rule. (whether they are better off outside the EU is a different matter)I have friends living fulltime in Turkey who have to leave their homes every few months and leave the country to renew their visas. Imagine if Portugal made all ex-pats apply for a renewal visa! Now that would be something to moan about!
Re: Portugal killing itself
best watch this short 3.5 minute spanish film.
interesting to see the comments on you tube thats its just like portugal and greece
see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXWZ3uAEKsw
interesting to see the comments on you tube thats its just like portugal and greece
see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXWZ3uAEKsw
-
James Faro
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 3620
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:12 pm
- Location: Hertfordshire, New York, Dublin and Calonge!
Re: Portugal killing itself
Ex-pats(of all nationalities) always moan. After all why the Australians call British ex-pats whingeing poms! I always thought that was an unfair exaggeration but then Channel 4 had a documentary fly-on-the-wall series about people moving to Australia. One woman in particular moaned about the weather(always too hot) that the house's kitchen was too big(huh?); the road signs; the driving in fact everything was wrong! Her son wanted to go home back to the UK and the woman ended up in Hove. I think she was only happy when she was miserable! 
If you decide to move to another country you have to accept everything the good and the bad. Period. Under European law you have the right to reside and work in all member states but that does not mean that everybody in that host country wants and welcomes you.
Of course not all ex-pats are like that. Some embrace everything in their new home country and if there are things that irk them then they keep quiet. They are the responsible ones.
The Portuguese are a very proud people. Go to the Rossio square in Lisbon and shout out to the people stupid ignorant comments like "Portugal is in the shite" and you can expect the same treatment by the locals that Gadaffi got when he was captured, and a bloody good job too!
If you decide to move to another country you have to accept everything the good and the bad. Period. Under European law you have the right to reside and work in all member states but that does not mean that everybody in that host country wants and welcomes you.
Of course not all ex-pats are like that. Some embrace everything in their new home country and if there are things that irk them then they keep quiet. They are the responsible ones.
The Portuguese are a very proud people. Go to the Rossio square in Lisbon and shout out to the people stupid ignorant comments like "Portugal is in the shite" and you can expect the same treatment by the locals that Gadaffi got when he was captured, and a bloody good job too!
-
jamielyon4
- CVO Senior
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:51 pm
- Location: St Helens, www.montecarvoeiro.com
- Contact:
Re: Portugal killing itself
martin wrote:best watch this short 3.5 minute spanish film.
interesting to see the comments on you tube thats its just like portugal and greece
see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXWZ3uAEKsw
If Carlsberg ran government thats how it would be...absolutely superb and so bloody true...
Re: Portugal killing itself
just wondered if you anyone could tell when the bureaucrats are hard at work or when they are on strike as was the case yesterday
for example
Hard At Work
On Strike
for example
Hard At Work
On Strike
-
jamielyon4
- CVO Senior
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:51 pm
- Location: St Helens, www.montecarvoeiro.com
- Contact:
Re: Portugal killing itself
Not more decisions!
Re: Portugal killing itself
Of course the strike in the UK next week is completly different. 12 hour wait forcast at Heathrow immigration.
We do things in our own way.
We do things in our own way.