TAX Declaration, how easy DIY?

[joeysoap]

lots of knowledgeable posters on forum on property tax so another question. I have received my bill for 1st instalment of tax. another owner in the same block, also 1 bed apt has now recived his. almost twice mine. when he queried it with his fiscal rep (also his solicitor) he was informed that it was because the property was in both his and his wife's name. I am pretty sure that our apt is also in both names, but even if it isn't surely they can't charge per person or is the system that mad? I though it was a property tax not a person tax.

[pickwick]

If in joint names you get 2 bills at the same time (one each) for half the amount due.

Pickwick

[e-richard]

I thought it was a property tax not a person tax.

Indeed it is, but as Pickwick has pointed out, its a tax on the property that you are each individually responsible for a share.

I'm not sure if this is "just too clever" or if its "a very good idea".

What happens if one party does not pay ?
Is the other party in any way responsible or in danger ?

[joeysoap]

thank you both for informative replys (knew I could rely on this site for good info). trouble is both apts are in the same block, both same size, both nearly identical but I would appear to have a valuation of roughly 51% of his valuation. as an earlier reply stated the valuation of the property has no bearing on what was actually paid, but in my friends case its not a million miles away.

when we were purchasing we went through the details fairly thoroughly with our solicitor and he informed us there was no need to put children on the deeds as there is no inheritance tax in portugal between parents & children. but we are pretty sure we requested both names on the deeds. our solicitor kept us informed by email of every significant development as it occurred ie prorogation of building licence (we had to find that out one too ) application for habitation licence, actual granting of said licence, details of who attended the notarys office and on what date, and how the signing went etc. very informative and in my opinion very efficient. I have dug out the following; a seven page document headed Certidao, stamped on each page by the notary and initialled on each page. on the 2nd page both our names and home address is stated and on the 3rd the apt identification is clearly indicated. not in any way proficient in portuguese but to my eye the apt is in both names.

so how come we only received a valuation bill in my name? our fiscap rep is representing us both and appears to be competant. should we be concerned that our bill is only half our friends bill or should they be concerned that their bill is double ours?

[biffa]

Joey

You should put these queries to your fiscal rep - that is what they are there for. If there is something wrong they can help or at least advise on how to correct it.

[joeysoap]

[

quote="biffa"]Joey

You should put these queries to your fiscal rep - that is what they are there for. If there is something wrong they can help or at least advise on how to correct it.

[/quote]

thanks for reply bitta, was considering doing just that, however last friday i was in contact with the other couple. they were home from cvo on thursday (good weather week ) and they visited their solicitor/rep. reading through the documents again he informed them that their 'bill' was indeed for the whole year, but the bill was in both names whereas mine is in my name only, which leads me to believe the deeds are in my name only. really must make a will and when doing so must take this into consideration.

it was 'niggling' both of us that there could be such a huge difference in the tax. difference is only a few euro now so no worries.

thanks again for your reply.

[RichardHenshall]

Joeysoap, unless I am mistaken, each registered owner will receive a completely separate demand from the Finanças for their percentage ownership, so my guess is that you have yours but do not have that of your other half. The Valor Patrimonial Tributário shown on the demand represents the value of that percentage (which is only the same as the Valor Patrimonial Actual of the whole property if it's owned by one person). If you add your half to that of your OH, your property would then be valued at a very similar level to that of your neighbour.

I wonder if your neighbour has had a 'joint' account from his fiscal representative, who has amalgamated two separate accounts from the Finanças (and probably added a little extra, as our FR does), rather than receiving a 'joint' account directly from the Finanças. Incidentally, the demand from the Finanças shows the amount due for the whole year (Colecta) but if above a cetain amount (€250?) will also show the amount due for the first instalment (Importância a pagar), usually half.

If I'm right, then your OH's share is now overdue as it had to be paid by the end of April and there will be fines for late payment. I would suggest you challenge your FR to prove that what you have paid covers 100% of the property.

A copy of your Caderneta Predial (which can be seen online once you have registered with the Finanças website) will show the VPA and a list of all owners and their fraction of ownership (and also the address to which the Finanças will send their demands). Is it possible your FR has failed to register as FR for both of you?

[joeysoap]

Joeysoap, unless I am mistaken, each registered owner will receive a completely separate demand from the Finanças for their percentage ownership, so my guess is that you have yours but do not have that of your other half. The Valor Patrimonial Tributário shown on the demand represents the value of that percentage (which is only the same as the Valor Patrimonial Actual of the whole property if it's owned by one person). If you add your half to that of your OH, your property would then be valued at a very similar level to that of your neighbour.

thanks Richard and to clarify situation: I received from my fr (who is acting for both of us) a copy of the financas statement, and as you correctly state it is for the whole year, and in my name only. financas valuation of property = approx 81,000 X .38% = €308 pa of which €154 due now.

my friend received a text from his fr stating that he was due to pay €150 now and his wife was also due to pay €150 now, and between them €300 was due now. no mention of a later payment and no copy of the financas assessment. when he visited his fr last week he was informed that the €150 each was for the whole year, making a combined total of €300 for the whole year, which was not stated on the original text message received by him. their total yearly assessment is €300 and my total assessment is €308,so in all probability we are actually both ok. (perhaps because they were seperate and neither on their own came to over €250 there was no half yearly breakdown ?) it was the 'now' due differences that threw us .

from reading your very informative reply i gather that it could be possible 'our' fr has amalgamated 'our' assessment onto one assessment. I have a copy of the financas valuation and I am clearly the only one on it.

really must register with financas asap to see if the property is in both our names or just mine (which would be a disappointment, I have to confess)

thanks again for your much appreciated reply

[RichardHenshall]

... (perhaps because they were seperate and neither on their own came to over €250 there was no half yearly breakdown ?) it was the 'now' due differences that threw us ...

I think you've probably nailed it there.

[biffa]

[quote="joeysoap"][ really must register with financas asap to see if the property is in both our names or just mine (which would be a disappointment, I have to confess)

Joey - you ARE registered with the Finanças via your FR. They must know if the property was acquired in both names or not. That will be clarified on the land registry and tax department records.

Just because both names appear on the escritura it doesn't mean both own the property as the escritura will mention a spouse.