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How do we open a Branch Office in Portugal ?
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Ellie
- CVO Oracle
- Posts: 8886
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:16 pm
- Location: Londoner in the Wolds,Lincs
- Contact:
Thats interesting quote Guest......
so you're saying that even being an employee is now a risky business in Algarve?
We had never run a business before..and felt great responsibility for our 3 Portuguese workers(plus English lad for a while)....paid on the dot same day each month.Even when recession(90s) was starting to hit hard, their wages came first....
They were excellent workers and deserved to be treated well and fairly.
Before we moved here..about 5 years ago....I was thinking starting up again.. a little business of my own...
and with Hs blessing and a bit of capital..started negotiating renting of a small plot going up towards Sesmarias ( the Sitio de Canada road ?)..
it was for sale..but Poruguese man agreed to rent it to me..also giving permission to install small mobile home....
I wanted to start a 'Herb Nursery'( a little dream of mine)...but family problems ensued and it never materialised.......
I still have that dream..but from what I read here it seems that all obstacles would be thrown in the way.......
Is it really that bad now?.......seems much worse than when we lived there!
At that time.. there was a real 'pioneer' feeling ..exciting ..as if you could do anything..has that gone altogether?...
If so ..then Im really sad....and it will be such a disillusion for people here, planning on starting a new life in Algarve
Anyone got more positive thoughts and stories?
so you're saying that even being an employee is now a risky business in Algarve?
We had never run a business before..and felt great responsibility for our 3 Portuguese workers(plus English lad for a while)....paid on the dot same day each month.Even when recession(90s) was starting to hit hard, their wages came first....
They were excellent workers and deserved to be treated well and fairly.
Before we moved here..about 5 years ago....I was thinking starting up again.. a little business of my own...
and with Hs blessing and a bit of capital..started negotiating renting of a small plot going up towards Sesmarias ( the Sitio de Canada road ?)..
it was for sale..but Poruguese man agreed to rent it to me..also giving permission to install small mobile home....
I wanted to start a 'Herb Nursery'( a little dream of mine)...but family problems ensued and it never materialised.......
I still have that dream..but from what I read here it seems that all obstacles would be thrown in the way.......
Is it really that bad now?.......seems much worse than when we lived there!
At that time.. there was a real 'pioneer' feeling ..exciting ..as if you could do anything..has that gone altogether?...
If so ..then Im really sad....and it will be such a disillusion for people here, planning on starting a new life in Algarve
Anyone got more positive thoughts and stories?
...well I see it like this….three categories…
1. yer man…ltd co. pays taxes…. wants to branch out…...no problem…talk to the experts and you’ll get it right….
2. yer romantic (pioneer) type who wants to get out of the rat-race and open another bar restaurant or whatever….forget it….the Portuguese do it better …..
3. yer man who can afford not to work…..no problem…..filling a form to make an appointment to talk to someone about filling a form to make an appointment to talk to someone to find the answer in a shrug…….why not….like them, you’ve got all the time in the world……
1. yer man…ltd co. pays taxes…. wants to branch out…...no problem…talk to the experts and you’ll get it right….
2. yer romantic (pioneer) type who wants to get out of the rat-race and open another bar restaurant or whatever….forget it….the Portuguese do it better …..
3. yer man who can afford not to work…..no problem…..filling a form to make an appointment to talk to someone about filling a form to make an appointment to talk to someone to find the answer in a shrug…….why not….like them, you’ve got all the time in the world……
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Guest
my view is that the only "foriegners" who can succeed and do well in Portugal are those multinational firms who can employ 25 top lisbon lawyers to bulldoze their way through all these petty "jobsworth" characters in these camaras.
small firms and sole traders will always be hard pressed.a small shop in silves who specialises in ball bearings for machines was owed 5000 euros by a customer....apparently there is some new law (whats new!!!) that says the firm owed the money has to get a cetificate to prove that they have paid their social security...this is so that they can paid for their work.....well believe me when I tell you that it took two weeks of going around various departments to get his piece of paper
the only other thing to do. is to remenber the folllowing,...if you want a problem here....ask a question........just shut up mind your own business.
its a sad state but I have always been impressed by Portuguese and they by and large run their firms well.....one wonders what could have been if they didnt spend so much time and resources on paperwork
small firms and sole traders will always be hard pressed.a small shop in silves who specialises in ball bearings for machines was owed 5000 euros by a customer....apparently there is some new law (whats new!!!) that says the firm owed the money has to get a cetificate to prove that they have paid their social security...this is so that they can paid for their work.....well believe me when I tell you that it took two weeks of going around various departments to get his piece of paper
the only other thing to do. is to remenber the folllowing,...if you want a problem here....ask a question........just shut up mind your own business.
its a sad state but I have always been impressed by Portuguese and they by and large run their firms well.....one wonders what could have been if they didnt spend so much time and resources on paperwork
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Guest
Does this mean that we are doomed to failure then?
I am self-employed (mobile beauty/holistic therapist), all on my own and will hope to continue this in the Algarve. My husband is planning on buying an existing (& successful) small business (poss. 1-2 employees).
We have had loads of advice and have read many books etc. etc. and it all seemed fine to me. I know its not quite the same as running a business in the UK but could it all go horribly wrong for us?
I am self-employed (mobile beauty/holistic therapist), all on my own and will hope to continue this in the Algarve. My husband is planning on buying an existing (& successful) small business (poss. 1-2 employees).
We have had loads of advice and have read many books etc. etc. and it all seemed fine to me. I know its not quite the same as running a business in the UK but could it all go horribly wrong for us?
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Ellie
- CVO Oracle
- Posts: 8886
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:16 pm
- Location: Londoner in the Wolds,Lincs
- Contact:
No..I wouldn't say you were 'doomed to failure' Deb...
Ive just taken a look at your website and you are offering very good variety of treatments..with advantage of popular UK products...tots clothes/books....Id say you have a good chance of success...and I do wish you that
But......be prepared for quite a bit of competition!
An aquaintance of mine..in same line as yourself(been established there some years) says theres 18(think Ive got that right) other beauty therapists in the CVO area.....
Didnt say whether they were all mobile or not though....so you could again..have that advantage!
Referring to 'guests' post...about customers not paying bills.....we experienced same problem....cheques bouncing etc...
H always asked for 30% deposit before we tackled any job..but sometimes getting the rest of the money was a trial!
H says he(he doesnt speak for me!) wouldnt start a business again there now..and would prefer to work for someone.
perhaps someone (guest) could tell me what the situation is like there now regarding a factura(work permit)....I know H had to wait near 7 months for his......
our accountants (excellent fellas) managed to get a 'legal docu' to carry around until it arrived......
he had to poduce this everywhere..even when buying materials for the carpentry business and when claiming tax back.
But maybe this easier now?
Ive just taken a look at your website and you are offering very good variety of treatments..with advantage of popular UK products...tots clothes/books....Id say you have a good chance of success...and I do wish you that
But......be prepared for quite a bit of competition!
An aquaintance of mine..in same line as yourself(been established there some years) says theres 18(think Ive got that right) other beauty therapists in the CVO area.....
Didnt say whether they were all mobile or not though....so you could again..have that advantage!
Referring to 'guests' post...about customers not paying bills.....we experienced same problem....cheques bouncing etc...
H always asked for 30% deposit before we tackled any job..but sometimes getting the rest of the money was a trial!
H says he(he doesnt speak for me!) wouldnt start a business again there now..and would prefer to work for someone.
perhaps someone (guest) could tell me what the situation is like there now regarding a factura(work permit)....I know H had to wait near 7 months for his......
our accountants (excellent fellas) managed to get a 'legal docu' to carry around until it arrived......
he had to poduce this everywhere..even when buying materials for the carpentry business and when claiming tax back.
But maybe this easier now?
I can't say that you are doomed to failure, and as I said in an earlier post, self-employed is fine.
It is the business with employees which could be difficult. If it is already set up and thriving you should be ok, but it was a long term resident with a business and employees who told me
'come out here to be employed, self-employed or retired - but don't try and set up a business unless you have a lot of time and money to waste'
I can give you several examples of things that I have come across in my job (I am employed, my husband is self-employed) that you would not have to do in the UK - and which frankly seem completely ridiculous to me - and which cost hours and hours of lost time and money, and lots of frustration!
Be prepared for the worst, and maybe it will be better than you expect!
Send me a pm or e-mail if you want some specific examples
It is the business with employees which could be difficult. If it is already set up and thriving you should be ok, but it was a long term resident with a business and employees who told me
'come out here to be employed, self-employed or retired - but don't try and set up a business unless you have a lot of time and money to waste'
I can give you several examples of things that I have come across in my job (I am employed, my husband is self-employed) that you would not have to do in the UK - and which frankly seem completely ridiculous to me - and which cost hours and hours of lost time and money, and lots of frustration!
Be prepared for the worst, and maybe it will be better than you expect!
Send me a pm or e-mail if you want some specific examples
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Guest
no not all are doomed to failure...but it is very hard to be a success not because of your own foolishness...but because the policiital system is here is geared up to put hindrance and problems in front of you.
the ones who "succeed" here are by in large those who work from home...villa maintence pool cleaning etc....one peice of advice if you do you mobile therapy dont buy a commercial vehicle ..just buy a hatchback car....if the police stop the commercial vehicle they will ALWAYS find something wrong...then its a fine
sorry to be son negative..but when I have seen so many enthusiastic people come here and then go away it makes you want to weep at the stupidity of these officials...who are insulated from sacking and any other problem....for all the have to do is to lean back ..where the licence..you will be fined...
very sad that they can get away with it.
the ones who "succeed" here are by in large those who work from home...villa maintence pool cleaning etc....one peice of advice if you do you mobile therapy dont buy a commercial vehicle ..just buy a hatchback car....if the police stop the commercial vehicle they will ALWAYS find something wrong...then its a fine
sorry to be son negative..but when I have seen so many enthusiastic people come here and then go away it makes you want to weep at the stupidity of these officials...who are insulated from sacking and any other problem....for all the have to do is to lean back ..where the licence..you will be fined...
very sad that they can get away with it.
Branch
Answer to original question is that if a foreign company has a permanent activity in Portugal and that includes having an employee here then it needs to register a branch. You will probably need to get a lawyer to help register the branch.
You will need a legalised Board Resolution (bearing apostille under Hague Convention) from the mother company resolving to open a branch showing branch address, objects of branch, attributed capital (min 5,000 euros) and appointing a manager.
Manager will pay social security unless already paying in another EU country.
You will also need to provide legal documents including a legalised copy of the memorandum and articles and also the certificate of incorporation. These will have to be translated to Portuguese.
It is not difficult but due to translations etc can be quite costly. You also need good solid accounts advice to avoid making mistakes. You need an accountant to sign off to register branch anyway.
Good ere innit?
You will need a legalised Board Resolution (bearing apostille under Hague Convention) from the mother company resolving to open a branch showing branch address, objects of branch, attributed capital (min 5,000 euros) and appointing a manager.
Manager will pay social security unless already paying in another EU country.
You will also need to provide legal documents including a legalised copy of the memorandum and articles and also the certificate of incorporation. These will have to be translated to Portuguese.
It is not difficult but due to translations etc can be quite costly. You also need good solid accounts advice to avoid making mistakes. You need an accountant to sign off to register branch anyway.
Good ere innit?
The 'other' English Disease
Ever since Guestt posted his/her question on 24th June regarding the establishment of an office in Portugal I have been amazed and angered at the nature of some of the replies.
As a UK based business proprietor with the desire to establish a presence in Portugal I declared my own interest in the feedback as I had carried out my own research but thought, even hoped that an alternative to my own findings might emerge. As someone who spends 3 months of the year in Portugal in my own property plus numerous long weekends and would willingly spend more if time permitted I feel I am well qualified to make the comments that follow.
On one of my earlier visits to Portugal 23 years ago I played golf at Vilamoura with 3 friends. When we finished we had a drink on the terrace outside the old clubhouse. On a table close by was a group of ex-pats (all who spoke had English accents) - all bemoaning the Portuguese for their hospitals, roads, attitude etc etc. Little did I think then that 23 years on they would still be at it.
Well, I am totally dumbfounded by the 'English' reaction to the question posed by Guestt. To put the reaction into some form of summary - Everybody is out of step except the English.
Those who criticise the Portuguese system presumably researched everything they needed to before they moved there? They took advice from the British Consulate (whose publications are plentiful), spent some time in Portugal (apart from holidays), mixed with the people and took the time to learn their language and understand their customs and cultures - I think not!
Like the majority of English they will have expected the Portuguese to change their ways to accommodate them - they make no effort to integrate and then blame everybody else because nobody likes them.
Draw a parallel with last week's football - England could not get their way so it was the Swiss referee's fault - what are they going to blame Henman's demise on? I can't wait to hear!
All of you people who see fit to castigate the Portuguese 'System' should be thankful that you live in a 'paradise' while earning your living - if integration is not for you - get out.
Consider for one moment this situation - the upside of living in a country that is intolerant to Asylum seekers - they are shown the door if they turn up in Portugal and are not offered any funding or comforts. If those same people come to England they are given a house and a load of money - who has it right?
The British Government (which allegedly represents all of us) cow-tow to Brussels the Portuguese make the rules fit their requirements - is that symbolic of a country who are behind the times?
I am trying to establish a part of my business in Portugal and agree that it is cumbersome - but that's the way it is. I have to find a way to comply or not bother - that is my problem not the Portuguese. The rules were there before I arrived and will probably be there long after I go - so what!
Come on you people and get real - Portugal is for the Portuguese and if you want to enjoy it - Integrate. You could always get on a plane and come back here and seek asylum - you would then be free to judge.
When Portugal win Euro 2004 on Sunday it will be rightly deserved - they fought back after a shaky start - without blaming the elements and anything else that comes to hand.
As an Irishman I am delighted to see the underdog emerge through strength of character and sheer hard work - we, the Irish have had to endure the same put-downs over the years (mainly from the English) and through our resourcefulness and industry have emerged stronger, better and balanced. We know how to win and we know how to lose and take it all in our stride. It must be a celtic attribute.
The Portuguese are no different and I wish them every success on Sunday evening.
As a UK based business proprietor with the desire to establish a presence in Portugal I declared my own interest in the feedback as I had carried out my own research but thought, even hoped that an alternative to my own findings might emerge. As someone who spends 3 months of the year in Portugal in my own property plus numerous long weekends and would willingly spend more if time permitted I feel I am well qualified to make the comments that follow.
On one of my earlier visits to Portugal 23 years ago I played golf at Vilamoura with 3 friends. When we finished we had a drink on the terrace outside the old clubhouse. On a table close by was a group of ex-pats (all who spoke had English accents) - all bemoaning the Portuguese for their hospitals, roads, attitude etc etc. Little did I think then that 23 years on they would still be at it.
Well, I am totally dumbfounded by the 'English' reaction to the question posed by Guestt. To put the reaction into some form of summary - Everybody is out of step except the English.
Those who criticise the Portuguese system presumably researched everything they needed to before they moved there? They took advice from the British Consulate (whose publications are plentiful), spent some time in Portugal (apart from holidays), mixed with the people and took the time to learn their language and understand their customs and cultures - I think not!
Like the majority of English they will have expected the Portuguese to change their ways to accommodate them - they make no effort to integrate and then blame everybody else because nobody likes them.
Draw a parallel with last week's football - England could not get their way so it was the Swiss referee's fault - what are they going to blame Henman's demise on? I can't wait to hear!
All of you people who see fit to castigate the Portuguese 'System' should be thankful that you live in a 'paradise' while earning your living - if integration is not for you - get out.
Consider for one moment this situation - the upside of living in a country that is intolerant to Asylum seekers - they are shown the door if they turn up in Portugal and are not offered any funding or comforts. If those same people come to England they are given a house and a load of money - who has it right?
The British Government (which allegedly represents all of us) cow-tow to Brussels the Portuguese make the rules fit their requirements - is that symbolic of a country who are behind the times?
I am trying to establish a part of my business in Portugal and agree that it is cumbersome - but that's the way it is. I have to find a way to comply or not bother - that is my problem not the Portuguese. The rules were there before I arrived and will probably be there long after I go - so what!
Come on you people and get real - Portugal is for the Portuguese and if you want to enjoy it - Integrate. You could always get on a plane and come back here and seek asylum - you would then be free to judge.
When Portugal win Euro 2004 on Sunday it will be rightly deserved - they fought back after a shaky start - without blaming the elements and anything else that comes to hand.
As an Irishman I am delighted to see the underdog emerge through strength of character and sheer hard work - we, the Irish have had to endure the same put-downs over the years (mainly from the English) and through our resourcefulness and industry have emerged stronger, better and balanced. We know how to win and we know how to lose and take it all in our stride. It must be a celtic attribute.
The Portuguese are no different and I wish them every success on Sunday evening.
Yes, td, we did spend a large amount of time here before moving, we do have many Portuguese friends, we went to Portuguese language classes for 18 months before moving, we had bought a property 3 years before moving, and we do integrate.
None of this makes any difference when you are trying to 'do the right thing' ie register to pay tax, change ownership of a vehicle, comply with employment law only to come up against a brick wall time and time again.
I don't expect Portugal to be like England, and as I said earlier, still have no intention of going back, but life could be a lot easier for everyone out here - for the portuguese as well as the ex-pats - if some of the officialdom worked properly.
I have no problem with filling in forms, standing in line etc, provided the person behind the desk does what they are supposed to do. To stand in a queue to produce papers that have been requested, only to be told that they are not the correct documents after all, is more than a little frustrating.
Until you have lived and worked here permanently, it is not possible to appreciate how things work out here. I think it is only fair that those of us with experience, make people planning to make the move aware of the problems they may encounter. They are more likely to be successful here if they are prepared, otherwise it could be enough to make you go back quite quickly, perhaps without giving it enough time.
None of this makes any difference when you are trying to 'do the right thing' ie register to pay tax, change ownership of a vehicle, comply with employment law only to come up against a brick wall time and time again.
I don't expect Portugal to be like England, and as I said earlier, still have no intention of going back, but life could be a lot easier for everyone out here - for the portuguese as well as the ex-pats - if some of the officialdom worked properly.
I have no problem with filling in forms, standing in line etc, provided the person behind the desk does what they are supposed to do. To stand in a queue to produce papers that have been requested, only to be told that they are not the correct documents after all, is more than a little frustrating.
Until you have lived and worked here permanently, it is not possible to appreciate how things work out here. I think it is only fair that those of us with experience, make people planning to make the move aware of the problems they may encounter. They are more likely to be successful here if they are prepared, otherwise it could be enough to make you go back quite quickly, perhaps without giving it enough time.