Just found this

[R.Wethereyet]

Soulman - that's a sweeping generalisation that is so far removed from reality as to be 'laughable'.

it's yet another sign that CVO is dying

Have you walked down Oxford Street in London recently and seen the myriads of shops boarded up - is London dying? Do you recall the long established Woolworths going to the wall - and has that suggested the cities and towns it operated in are dying? Of course not.

The world is in transition and what went before is no guide to the future - everything we have consumed and used in any way will never return to its former 'glory'.

Royal Mail failed to realise that firstly fax and then e-mail and courier companies would take its business away - BA and its unions failed to prepare for the impact of Ryanair and Easyjet (and others) and so it goes on. The way people on holiday cater for themselves will undergo changes as consumers find less expensive ways to eat - the expensive eateries will have to find more imaginative ways to get to market or be left behind.

Lat year on here we discussed two establishments with 'For Sale' signs above their doors - Round Up and Bradys with price tags of €1.1M and €495,000 respectively - both are still for sale and will not be sold anytime soon. That's not a reflection on the businesses - the sort of money being asked is 'off the scale' and undoubtedly is 80%+ for the Goodwill. If they are to get anybody interested in paying the money being asked - Oasis as well - they need to be realistic with their expectations and remove the 'rose-tinted' glasses to see the way things are in the real world. The days of 'same-old, same-old' businesses being valued at farcical levels have gone and for good.The value in the businesses I have mentioned is in the 'bricks and mortar' and that's not a lot either.

Cvo is not dying - it is undergoing change and once everybody in its commercial world realises that what's gone is gone - the place (and others) will become resurgent again and they will:)

To say that one well-known business that is for sale means that it is the end of CVO is frankly laughable, In that case, when Woolworths closed down and Harrods changed hands ,well the United Kingdom should have shut up shop early!

Carvoeiro is a thriving town and although times were difficult during the main hurricane battering of the financial crisis it still continued to operate.

- J

Comparing London, Dublin, Harrods the Royal Mail and Woolies to similarities in the downturn, or not of Carvoeiro is even more laughable. Carvoeiro is a tourist resort, nothing else. it lives and breaths on tourism - the local trade only accounts for approximately 20% of annual turnover, totally different to large cities in the UK and Ireland who are probably the reverse.

Furthermore, it is not just a few businesses that are for sale, but many, albeit many are not advertised. Others have already closed their doors and moved on, because their trade has reduced so significantly over the last 3 years that they have saved money by being closed.

Numerous business owners I have spoken to have seen their turnover reduce by over 50% in 2 years, and their profits reduce even further, and they are the lucky ones. Some businesses aren't even making a profit and are hanging on in the hope that a miracle will happen, and they can see out this year.

We have lived and worked here for seven years, and the downturn in business across all businesses has been decimated. Just because certain forum members currently see crowds in the town, and restaurants looking busy doesn't mean Carvoeiro is bucking the trend and is OK. The reality, is that visitors and locals are not spending as much per head, and the 'season', which was mid April to end of October, is now only July to September, and shortening.

Regarding Oasis, it may just be a marketing ploy to put the wind up their clients and others who think they are closing, and therefore get as many bookings as possible whilst they remain 'unsold'.

I still love the town, and will remain here until the big guy in the sky says I have to move on, but many friends and acquaintances have already gone home (UK, Holland, Brazil and others), and I don't meet many newcomers who are venturing out here.

[carvoeiro1]

I belive that the current management of said place only rent it.
It is the elderly long time resident owners who have put it up for sale.

[soulman]

Soulman

Look what you've done - you've frightened the 'shite' out of these people who believe Oasis is on the brink of closing down.

If Carvoeiro is dying - there's a lot of people coming to the 'funeral'

Apart from 3 or 4 people who have have mentioned ribs and tomato soup, which will have the same effect on their bowels as the fright anyway, all I did was mention it was for sale, and made a comment regarding the ongoing downturn in the village.

Also, If you consider 3/4 as a lot, then hundreds or probably thousands that are not visiting anymore may also have something to do with it.

[shanagarry]

Widge

I only started from July 1st ( a 'would you consider' phone call started it off) this time and had thought a long term let from September would do fine. I had and do not have any long term intentions as far as renting it is concerned - this time next year it will be sold and I am out of it.

assuming the agent was going to charge at least €1500 per week that's a mark up of 76%.

I have no idea what the going rate is for a 3 bedroomed property with pool and sea view in August but I know its more than £850 and I now know that the rate is nearer £2,000

Can you also attract private clients between May June & September October

I used to up to 3 years ago - mainly golf parties

Were their costs involved in building your own web site

Not sure what you mean by this. The website was built by a friend and myself - no external cost involved

Ever thought of collaberating with other villa owners

I would have willingly collaborated with other property owners but was not aware of such a cooperative (tell me more).


I have several enquiries for it from October and am currently checking references.Managing rentals is not something I have any desire to be involved in - my earlier experiences taught me valuable lessons.

[shanagarry]

R.Wethereyet

You're partly right, in my opinion - the absence of any original thought as far as building a sustainable business seems to be - more of the same - bars, restaurants, souvenir shops and the like. Is it any wonder there are so many closures? This forum extols (or otherwise) the merits of patronising various restaurants and bars - which in essence all offer a variation of the same theme - food and booze.

The point I made earlier regarding the need to find other ways to market is very relevant. As you rightly point out the numbers visiting are diminishing and those using expensive restaurants is also in decline. I recall a conversation with a restauranteur some months backs when I commented on the apparent increase in Spanish visitors - he shrugged his shoulders and said "they don't spend money in restaurants only in Intermarche" and resigned himself to that situation. Clearly the huge increase in the numbers of supermarkets since 1988 when we first came here regularly has been nothing short of incredible - which suggests their market research activities have been in overdrive and you don't see too many of them empty.

We took up permanent residence on June 24th - which is a totally different experience and way of life from visiting. We have every intention of staying for as long as the place will have us but I sincerely hope the businesses here start to 'think outside the box' and try new processes and concepts to bring those who have the money to spend back here.

[sam]

Hope they do not sell Oasis, it is our favourite restaurant. We go there not just for the food and wine, but also Karin & Hans wonderful welcoming service. Take that away and the ambiance will change. The price seems over the top, but if they can get it good luck to them.

[shanagarry]

Going on what was said earlier and I'm guessing here

It is the elderly long time resident owners who have put it up for sale.

it would appear that the tenants are trying to recover their time and development investment on top of the amount required by the owners - that's a tough one

[James Faro]

ShangaGarry

Thanks for the advice on letting. I am shocked, indeed gobsmacked that the agency wanted to charge you a whopping 56.7% commission on your £1500 or from their point of view is a 76.5% markup! I have heard of "money for nothing" now I can believe it. I thought the commission would have been around 20% thinking that was generous enough for 'em!

I have the idea of setting up my own website and taking care of all the admin stuff as well as ensuring the villa when I get one(!) is well maintained. Some holidaymakers can be fussy to the point of incredulity!

How do you find bookings out of the main season, that is to say. November to February? Is it non existent or just sparse?

Cheers - James

James

On your last point - renting through agencies - think again. If you are prepared to give up a very large proportion of your income - carry on. We rented for 5 years but stopped doing so three years ago - it was a pain as we had to plan our holidays around clients and putting your stuff away every time you left was inconvenient. Since moving here and having the spare property we have made it available for rent again.

I decided to do it all myself by building a website and handling every enquiry and booking, used our management company to make sure the maid, gardener and poolman were taken care of and did very well as a result. I toyed with putting the property with a well known agency this year and was 'gob-smacked' when I received their tariff. As an example I charge and get £1,500 per week in August - through the agency £850. Fortunately I have picked up a lot of last minute business plus some from longer standing clients from the earlier days - all at sensible prices.

As a slight aside we have picked up 3 bookings from people who have turned up to properties that they have found to be unacceptable and insisted the agent find them a place that is in keeping with the one they were told they were going to holiday in. I have heard of other similar stories and wondered if the owners are cutting corners and not decorating/maintaining as they would previously had done. That's another point to consider James - making sure you keep the place in tip-top condition and that has a cost - if you don't.

Think long and hard about using an agency - or negotiate yourself a sensible deal - better still - do it yourself (that way you get to vet the people who will be staying in your property) and build a relationship with them.

Good luck

[shanagarry]

James

In the early days I ran regular ads in The Sunday Times and built up a reasonable following throughout the year. Then the internet kicked-in and it got a little easier - inasmuch the audience was bigger buy caution was the name of the game as you seldom got to speak to a prospective client this way.

I had two properties then and in times of plenty - clients were also plentiful. We stopped renting in 2006 - so I lost touch with the market. I am still inundated by all these organisations who will advertise you on their site for a pittance but ask for a cut of the rent you achieve. I have never used any of them.

How do you find bookings out of the main season, that is to say. November to February?

I don't know is the short answer - other than do all you can to get your property up the Google ratings (if you are knowledgeable with that sort of thing) I am hoping to take the easy way out and get a long term let - but that needs to be carefully assessed to avoid getting 'iffy' tenants

[R.Wethereyet]

Many of the problems that Carvoeiro and the Algarve have suffered have been mainly self inflicted.

Carvoeiro's growth over the past 15 years was allowed to go on with little thought for the future, foreign investment was key to the area, but a lack of foresight and an even greater lack of reinvestment in the infrastructure has brought us to where we are today.

The regional and local authorities have allowed the planning and siting of too many bars and restaurants purely for monetary gain without thinking of the effects that this over commercialisation creates. Then allowing these bars to open much later for more trade but who then end up attracting trouble. Issuing of too many licences for karaoke, and second rate singers who couldn't make it in their own countries.

Then there are the restaurants, not all, but the vast majority. who offer the same old fayre year after year for inflated prices, but yet lower their service standards and think this is acceptable.

The regional tourism board spends millions of euros advertising to the Portuguese and Spanish markets, yet when these very same visitors arrive they spend very little in the local economy. Most pack their cars with food and drink from home and bring it down here.

Gypsy traders being allowed to erect stalls, on street corners selling 'designer label' goods yet being classed by the government as artesanatos, and therefore not required to pay taxes.

When I first came here on holiday 20 years ago, I didn't mind paying my hard earned money to the local businesses because they also worked hard to attract my business and gave me excellent service and value, but nowadays many of these very same businesses think that they have a God given right to business whilst not giving the standard that is expected.

Yes we can try and blame the recent crisis, but Carvoeiro was never reliant on the package holiday business or the 'kiss me quick' hat brigade, but from what I have seen over the last couple of years, this is the type of client many of the businesses are now trying to appeal to, and the authorities keep supporting them.

[shanagarry]

Wow - do I detect a large degree of cynicism or have you allowed yourself to be influenced by the British ex-pat 'misery' committee

[R.Wethereyet]

No cynicism or Ex Pat 'misery' just facts that are realised when one has lived here for many years.

By the way, welcome to your new life here in Carvoeiro, I hope that you can continue with your positive outlook on life here for many years.

P.S. did you ever get your phone line/broadband up and working, or was the PT engineer permanently delayed by the slow drivers one gets stuck behind all too often.

[widge]

James

In the early days I ran regular ads in The Sunday Times and built up a reasonable following throughout the year. Then the internet kicked-in and it got a little easier - inasmuch the audience was bigger buy caution was the name of the game as you seldom got to speak to a prospective client this way.

I had two properties then and in times of plenty - clients were also plentiful. We stopped renting in 2006 - so I lost touch with the market. I am still inundated by all these organisations who will advertise you on their site for a pittance but ask for a cut of the rent you achieve. I have never used any of them.

How do you find bookings out of the main season, that is to say. November to February?

I don't know is the short answer - other than do all you can to get your property up the Google ratings (if you are knowledgeable with that sort of thing) I am hoping to take the easy way out and get a long term let - but that needs to be carefully assessed to avoid getting 'iffy' tenants

Shanagarry,

Thanks again for sharing your experience. The internet has certainly changed the way people book their holidays and buying flights, accommodation and hire cars individually direct from the net seems to be on the increase. Search engines must influence decision making?

Over the past 6 years I have typically sold 21 weeks a year from the 31 between April & October via an agent. Clients are exclusively British and often families. Sales between November & March are non existent and possibly uneconomic if you cannot make a sensible charge for central heating the house.

I do not underestimate the valuable work my agent does in marketing the property, vetting the clients, handling the finance & deposits and ensuring the clients enjoy their holiday. However, the share of available income has to fairly reflect the risks and rewards involved by all parties, sometimes this wrongly favours the agent .

[Gary/Gaynor]

Soulman - that's a sweeping generalisation that is so far removed from reality as to be 'laughable'.

it's yet another sign that CVO is dying

Have you walked down Oxford Street in London recently and seen the myriads of shops boarded up - is London dying? Do you recall the long established Woolworths going to the wall - and has that suggested the cities and towns it operated in are dying? Of course not.

The world is in transition and what went before is no guide to the future - everything we have consumed and used in any way will never return to its former 'glory'.

Royal Mail failed to realise that firstly fax and then e-mail and courier companies would take its business away - BA and its unions failed to prepare for the impact of Ryanair and Easyjet (and others) and so it goes on. The way people on holiday cater for themselves will undergo changes as consumers find less expensive ways to eat - the expensive eateries will have to find more imaginative ways to get to market or be left behind.

Lat year on here we discussed two establishments with 'For Sale' signs above their doors - Round Up and Bradys with price tags of €1.1M and €495,000 respectively - both are still for sale and will not be sold anytime soon. That's not a reflection on the businesses - the sort of money being asked is 'off the scale' and undoubtedly is 80%+ for the Goodwill. If they are to get anybody interested in paying the money being asked - Oasis as well - they need to be realistic with their expectations and remove the 'rose-tinted' glasses to see the way things are in the real world. The days of 'same-old, same-old' businesses being valued at farcical levels have gone and for good.The value in the businesses I have mentioned is in the 'bricks and mortar' and that's not a lot either.

Cvo is not dying - it is undergoing change and once everybody in its commercial world realises that what's gone is gone - the place (and others) will become resurgent again and they will:)

To say that one well-known business that is for sale means that it is the end of CVO is frankly laughable, In that case, when Woolworths closed down and Harrods changed hands ,well the United Kingdom should have shut up shop early!

Carvoeiro is a thriving town and although times were difficult during the main hurricane battering of the financial crisis it still continued to operate.

- J

Comparing London, Dublin, Harrods the Royal Mail and Woolies to similarities in the downturn, or not of Carvoeiro is even more laughable. Carvoeiro is a tourist resort, nothing else. it lives and breaths on tourism - the local trade only accounts for approximately 20% of annual turnover, totally different to large cities in the UK and Ireland who are probably the reverse.

Furthermore, it is not just a few businesses that are for sale, but many, albeit many are not advertised. Others have already closed their doors and moved on, because their trade has reduced so significantly over the last 3 years that they have saved money by being closed.

Numerous business owners I have spoken to have seen their turnover reduce by over 50% in 2 years, and their profits reduce even further, and they are the lucky ones. Some businesses aren't even making a profit and are hanging on in the hope that a miracle will happen, and they can see out this year.

We have lived and worked here for seven years, and the downturn in business across all businesses has been decimated. Just because certain forum members currently see crowds in the town, and restaurants looking busy doesn't mean Carvoeiro is bucking the trend and is OK. The reality, is that visitors and locals are not spending as much per head, and the 'season', which was mid April to end of October, is now only July to September, and shortening.

Regarding Oasis, it may just be a marketing ploy to put the wind up their clients and others who think they are closing, and therefore get as many bookings as possible whilst they remain 'unsold'.

I still love the town, and will remain here until the big guy in the sky says I have to move on, but many friends and acquaintances have already gone home (UK, Holland, Brazil and others), and I don't meet many newcomers who are venturing out here.

The most sensible post I've read on here for a while regarding CVO!
gaynor

[Gary/Gaynor]

Soulman

Look what you've done - you've frightened the 'shite' out of these people who believe Oasis is on the brink of closing down.

If Carvoeiro is dying - there's a lot of people coming to the 'funeral'

Apart from 3 or 4 people who have have mentioned ribs and tomato soup, which will have the same effect on their bowels as the fright anyway, all I did was mention it was for sale, and made a comment regarding the ongoing downturn in the village.

Also, If you consider 3/4 as a lot, then hundreds or probably thousands that are not visiting anymore may also have something to do with it.

They've all actually booked out gorgeous cottage in Swanage, totally full again this season
Gaynor