Finding a builder

[James Faro]

Well, to be forewarned is forearmed so that is extremely good advice. As I stated, this was one option and if this route was taken I would be on site night and day to ensure things are progressing. To be out of the area or the country when building is taken place is looking for trouble. There have been so many documented cases of this happening for people buying land and building overseas.

Out of someone's pain is another's gain; the gain being the information gratefully passed on on the pitfalls and troubles to be expected

Cheers - James

[shanagarry]

This forum has helped me to avoid making, what could have been some very serious mistakes. There is a plethora of experience across a myriad of topics/issues available here - use it

[widge]

This forum has helped me to avoid making, what could have been some very serious mistakes. There is a plethora of experience across a myriad of topics/issues available here - use it

Shanagarry, in your experience what are the economics of building your own eg.

If your budget was €600,000.00 & instead of buying a ready made villa you decided to build your own, how would it breakdown between plot, building and profit?

[shanagarry]

Widge

Our situation was not as you have asked but see if any of it helps.

We had a 170m2 3 bedroomed property on a 2,800m2 plot in Vale do Milho. It was our intention to extend to 300m2 and based on the costs 'estimated' by the architect - the cost would have ranged between €750 and €1,000 per square metre (depending on the quality of the additional fittings - kitchen, bathroom and living areas). As mentioned previously I added the 30% to allow for the overrun. I pitched everything in the middle and allowed €1,140 psm or a total of €148,200. The remainder was to be for furniture, aircon/heating etc.

During the preparatory process the land was valued at €250,000 and they estimated that to build a house to the specification we requested would be €250,000. The valuer assessed in 2007 that the finished property would 'sell' for €930,000. I don't think that would apply today.

The 'best' price I got from the architect was €350,000 which was subsequently reduced to €300,00 (both plus IVA). When I challenged his pricing he explained that while the additional area to be built would work out at the €750 - the amount of refurbishment of the 'old' part would eat up the rest of the cost. He couldn't answer why this was never mentioned at the beginning when I gave him a very precise budget of €200,000 (all in). I subsequently found out that his 'salesman' was a dab hand at over-promising and was not around when things went awry. At the price he offered I felt there would be more to come and walked away - a lot poorer for the experience.

When I found the new architect, he (and I trusted him) told me the base cost at €780 psm was right - but the builder would want a margin in the area of €30,000 to €40,000. He managed to get a price of €150,000 but was wary of that builder. He subsequently got prices that ranged from €175,000 to €240,000 (both plus IVA). By this time I had had enough and came upon an opportunity that was a lot easier to deal but had some challenges - that have since been overcome - but did take time.

I'd have to say that given the experience we endured - building is to be avoided. I had a modicum of experience when we extended a UK property several years ago and while it went reasonably well - my wife had to live through it as I was away from Monday to Friday. I dealt with the builder who did everything from planning to building and he did a good job. I half imagined that the same would apply here - wrong. If you know what you're doing and will be ever present - consider the many pitfalls you will inevitably encounter and then tread carefully, very carefully you might get the result you desire.

Regretfully I can't comment on the cost components other than what I've experienced. I don't know if that is standard or whether refurbishment has a cost structure of its own. From the deal I have subsequently done, where I dealt directly with the developer - something I strongly recommend if you want to get things done efficiently - I believe I have cut out the huge hassle factor and given a friend's experience (who was not ever present) - he values that at €200,000+ - so I am there or there abouts.

I hope that helps

[widge]

Thanks Shanagarry, a very interesting and detailed account of your experience. I think I might "sit on my hands" for the time being, the market conditions have deteriorated and as you rightly point out, the hassle factor is huge and I'm enjoying life at present!

[maccasa]

I think it may help if I give you a much curtailed story of our nightmare over 7-8 yrs, after falling in love with the area and deciding to build a holiday home during several holidays here 1997-2001. We had purchased a holiday points/time share in 1997 and chose Quinta da Lago as the main resort, but came with several friends to Val de Reis in 2000. Thats when we really went for CVO!

We started looking for a piece of land and through Edgar de Lagos found a place in Poco partido in 2002 - at the end of that year we had still not received documentation from the vendors lawyer and our lawyer advised us that he believed the vendor did not have full planning permission. We gave up on that and continued looking via EDL and other agents (even being sent to the same piece of land by another agent!)

In mid 2003 we found an ideal piece of land near Solferias hotel and appointed an architect - DPA of Albuferia - to turn my plans into a portuguese house. He was excellent and by the end of 2003 we full plans passed by the Camara. We then went to several builders for quotes - 2 found by our architect, 2 by ourselves and 1 by EDL. 2 of these gave high prices and one was a problem due to no english, no fax or internet.
The other 2 were very close on price and we couldnt split them. We eventually settled on the one recommended by our architect - RCM y Filhos of Albuferia, purely beacause the other one - Estralinhas - didnt have internet connection only Fax.

RCM began building April 13th 2004 - On April 14th a woman pulled up at the site and asked what they were doing on her brothers land!! That was the start of our nightmare - it eventually turned out that the land had been sold by Grao Para to a Portugues man in 1964 - he sold it approx 2 weeks later to an American. In 1994 The original portuguese man pursuaded Grao Para to buy the land back from him as he said he had not sold it and still had all the documents. Bear in mind that in 1974 during the revolution a lot of documentation and companies went very astray!! They did buy it back and eventually sold it to me in 2003. But of course it didnt actually belong to them, as the american had legitimately bought it and had all the registration documents - albeit with a plot number which didnt exist. In fact he had sold it to anther portuguese man in 2001.

Over the next 4 years we went through a turmoil of paperwork, lawyers etc etc - we "sacked" our lawyer (the rabbit if you know the lingo) for being useless and appointed a new one - Elsa Soares; together with the help of Edgar lagos, in 2008, we were given a new piece of land in exchange and had all neccessary paperwork and documentation. This included redesigning the house by DPA due to the shape of the new piece of land.

We went through the pricing stage again - 4 Builders - and eventually went back to the original one - he was slightly more expensive but signed a contract - which he produced!! and having shook hands in Mid nov he started clearing the land the next day. They actually started the building in Jan 2009 and we moved in July 5th. Very few problems at all and even better finished than we expected. The after sales service by RCM and DPA has been excellent and Elsa Soares has been a dream! We would willingly go the same route again - and in fact are now actively looking for another piece of land.

[James Faro]

Well Maccasa, that was certainly a roller coaster of a factual account.

Having been appalled and aghast of the land shenanigans you endured at least you got your property fully built and within a reasonable time too. The latter must have been a pleasure but the former must have taken the goodness out of it - four years of severe anxiety and bureaucracy.

This builder must be fully booked or will be by your recommendation.

Cheers - James

I think it may help if I give you a much curtailed story of our nightmare over 7-8 yrs, after falling in love with the area and deciding to build a holiday home during several holidays here 1997-2001. We had purchased a holiday points/time share in 1997 and chose Quinta da Lago as the main resort, but came with several friends to Val de Reis in 2000. Thats when we really went for CVO!

We started looking for a piece of land and through Edgar de Lagos found a place in Poco partido in 2002 - at the end of that year we had still not received documentation from the vendors lawyer and our lawyer advised us that he believed the vendor did not have full planning permission. We gave up on that and continued looking via EDL and other agents (even being sent to the same piece of land by another agent!)

In mid 2003 we found an ideal piece of land near Solferias hotel and appointed an architect - DPA of Albuferia - to turn my plans into a portuguese house. He was excellent and by the end of 2003 we full plans passed by the Camara. We then went to several builders for quotes - 2 found by our architect, 2 by ourselves and 1 by EDL. 2 of these gave high prices and one was a problem due to no english, no fax or internet.
The other 2 were very close on price and we couldnt split them. We eventually settled on the one recommended by our architect - RCM y Filhos of Albuferia, purely beacause the other one - Estralinhas - didnt have internet connection only Fax.

RCM began building April 13th 2004 - On April 14th a woman pulled up at the site and asked what they were doing on her brothers land!! That was the start of our nightmare - it eventually turned out that the land had been sold by Grao Para to a Portugues man in 1964 - he sold it approx 2 weeks later to an American. In 1994 The original portuguese man pursuaded Grao Para to buy the land back from him as he said he had not sold it and still had all the documents. Bear in mind that in 1974 during the revolution a lot of documentation and companies went very astray!! They did buy it back and eventually sold it to me in 2003. But of course it didnt actually belong to them, as the american had legitimately bought it and had all the registration documents - albeit with a plot number which didnt exist. In fact he had sold it to anther portuguese man in 2001.

Over the next 4 years we went through a turmoil of paperwork, lawyers etc etc - we "sacked" our lawyer (the rabbit if you know the lingo) for being useless and appointed a new one - Elsa Soares; together with the help of Edgar lagos, in 2008, we were given a new piece of land in exchange and had all neccessary paperwork and documentation. This included redesigning the house by DPA due to the shape of the new piece of land.

We went through the pricing stage again - 4 Builders - and eventually went back to the original one - he was slightly more expensive but signed a contract - which he produced!! and having shook hands in Mid nov he started clearing the land the next day. They actually started the building in Jan 2009 and we moved in July 5th. Very few problems at all and even better finished than we expected. The after sales service by RCM and DPA has been excellent and Elsa Soares has been a dream! We would willingly go the same route again - and in fact are now actively looking for another piece of land.

[shanagarry]

Macassa - that is some tale of woe and credit to for staying the course. It makes our debacle look insignificant by comparison. I guess my situation was not helped by the thoughts in the forefront of my mind that matters can get out of control (based on real life situations with friends) and I was going to do everything in my power to avoid being caught in a bureaucratic nightmare. As it is I have wasted €14,000 on fees to architects and another €12,000 on legal fees - such is/was my paranoia.

At least Macassa you have the experience to fall back on and can be a good point of reference for others looking to embark on the building route.

Well done

[widge]

We have now completed our extension & have moved into our new apartment.

After an exhaustive search, a tender & numerous site visits we eventually chose a local builder who we found by accident.

He delivered on time,on budget and exceeded our expectations in several ways. He is honest, reliable and above all professional in all that he does. I will gladly pass his contact details to those who have major (+ €25k) projects.