Finding a builder

[Lesley Jean]

Can I just say that you need to be very careful when looking for and then going with a builder in and around the Carvoeiro area. There are some real characters about
Beware............

[Toots]

Hi Lesley Jean

Can you elaborate?

Toots

[maccasa]

you are absolutely right - after having a house built in 2009, I can tell a few stories about "local" builders. Fortunately my Architect recommended one in Albuferia and we were extremely pleased

[Toots]

Hi Maccasa

I can understand if you do not name the builders but can you both at least tell the tales so others can have a chance of avoiding the "bad guys"?

Toots

[Lesley Jean]

I would love to but will not put myself in a position to be sued for defamation of character or liable or slander.

If anyone is considering using a builder from the area PM me and maybe I can help.

One good thing is that through finding a very bad one we now have found a very good one, one I would recommend to anyone looking for a good, trustworthy builder.

[maccasa]

This a can of worms and far too large a subject to really discuss here, however, I think the main point is to get a builder that is willing to sign a contract - and one which lists all of the inclusions and exclusions and the payment terms

One builder who was recommended and shown us good work wouldnt sign a contract - he said he would put down what was and wasnt included but not make an offcial contract.
Another said he would only sign a contract after receiving a down payment.

It is usually the price and terms of payment which are the problem - how much you negotiate for cash, how much is with IVA, how much you can buy direct according to the builders recommendation.

If anyone wants advice please pm me - I am also quite open to anyone visiting my house in CVO to see the standard of work

[Toots]

Hi Lesley Jean and Maccasa

You can tell the stories but without naming the builders without fear of recriminations. At least then we will all know what to look out for!

Please consider this - otherwise what was the point in starting the discussion Lesley??

Toots

[Lesley Jean]

The point was that if anyone is thinking of using a builder from the Cvo area then if they contact me first I can give them a few 'thoughts' if it is the guy we used until we had had enough.

[Globetrotter]

We have just finished a remodel and would not recommend our builder either. He did sign a contract (without which he would never have been hired) and that contract spelled everything out...which ended up being key to not getting totally ripped off. Still, we do not believe he was aboveboard and manipulated the situation to his advantage. Some things I would recommend:
1) Clear concise contract that is very explicit and assigns values. Our architect took care of this for us.
2) Whenever a change is made, make sure that you understand how it impacts the contracted finish date. You may need to add an amendment to the contract even if the change is minor as it could invalidate the finish date.
3) Who pays for destroyed irrigation systems (due to reckless and careless work) and collapsed calcada? Make sure these types of things are addressed.
4) Base your payment schedule on percentage of completion, not the calendar.
5) If you are not onsite, make sure you hire an aggressive project manager who will have your best interests at heart.
6) No detail is too small for the owner. It should be but it isn´t.

[widge]

Doesn't look hopeful does it? Nobody prepared to name the bad guys for fear of litigation and nobody can recommend a good one !

[maccasa]

I can definitely name a good one!

One other point on any contract is to insist on removal of ALL building rubble etc on completion and site clearance.

[Lesley Jean]

I can also recommend a good one just PM me if you need a name.

[sam]

One other point on any contract is to insist on removal of ALL building rubble etc on completion and site clearance.

This applies to all contractors. We had one where we stipulated that the waste had to be cleared from the site. They did - they went out through the backgate and dumped it behind a neighbour's house. Not quite what we had in mind.

[James Faro]

This is such a very good and important posting Lesley, so well done for bringing it to the forum attention and for other contributors here posting valuable advice and pointers.

I have plans(as one option) to buy a plot of land and get a house built on it within the next year or so as the costs of buying and building are more effective than buying a "ready made" house. I have read so many horror stories about Spanish builders but I wasn't whether such practises are widespread within Portugal but I am sure they exist.

So I will be keeping an eagle eye on this section. I have no illusions that if this idea was to go ahead it will be fraught with difficulties but good sound information as listed here will certainly avoid the steep pitfalls.

- J

[shanagarry]

James

I totally disagree with you.

We spent two years getting plans drawn and submitted - clearly defining all the areas that have been highlighted on here regarding builders and their 'practices'. We used what we believed to be a reputable firm of architects (non Portuguese and non British) whose agenda was determined by their interpretation of our requirements not those I had specified (fortunately through our lawyer). When approval was granted by the Camara (inside 6 weeks), we asked them to get building quotations - given that we had clearly specified the budget at the outset and allowed 30% for any overrun - we were expecting an amount around the budget. We went about finding builders of our own at the same time and gave them the plans and specifications for them to quote.

All of the prices generated by the architects were at the very least €175,000 more than the budget (allowing for the 30%) to which they remarked ' that's normal'. The prices we managed to get through our own efforts were there or there abouts - but none of them could provide references. As the architect generated prices were more than we could afford we abandoned that project and through this forum were introduced to another architect - this time a Portuguese individual who did a great job for us but could not operate to our timetable. It took him 4 months to get prices by which time we had found a new property at an affordable price and are now living in it.

Throughout the afore-mentioned process I harboured the fear that most people building here experience and as I saw the administrative timetable being stretched, I imagined the physical building timetable would be similarly affected. I knew of 4 projects that caused their owners nightmares and was so cautious that I imposed onerous terms and conditions - that deep inside I knew would be agreed to but not honoured. I met with Globetrotter and saw what he was having to endure - I was not going to be caught in that situation.

We have probably paid slightly more than we had intended but we have a property that is complete, is to our liking and apart from a few settling in 'niggles' - ticks all the boxes. I am sure some can point to a building project that went without a hitch and they have a satisfactory home as a result - they are few and far between and are very lucky. There is no right and wrong way - but if you are going to go down the building route - do not delegate the project management to any third party - do it yourself and be here everyday to oversee it. The cost to your sanity and wallet by not doing that will age you.

Be very very careful out there - especially as there are so many builders looking for work - the good ones are busy - the cowboys are not