Return of monies due to volconic ash cancellations

[Gerry Cullen]

Hi ye all, I was just wondering what other villa owners were doing as regards clients who couldn't travel due to the ash problem. Do you refund the full payment/full payment less deposit or other? It's just that none of the insurance companies are covering this and it is just an act of God, so what do we do. Any idea what the legal stance is.

Gerry Cullen

[cereza]

Purely on a technical basis I would have thought that no refund is neccessary. You contract to provide accomodation - how the tourist gets there is not of any concern to you.
It's not a package holiday.
Morally -it's at your discretion.

[Lesley Jean]

I expect I will get shot down in flames here but if you cover your costs then surely you should keep the deposit but return the difference from the full payment, would ensure a good rapport with your clients and hopefully have them booking with you again. I think there will be a fair few who will be greedy over this (not saying you Gerry you are too nice a person for that) which I think is a shame.

[e-richard]

I understand your sentiments LJ, but the problem with "covering your costs" is what do you count ?

Do you include all your fixed annual costs which are normally divided by all bookings over the year ?
e.g. advertising, fixed management fees, IMI, accounting, pool servicing etc etc etc

Perhaps if you put it differently and suggested surrendering the "notional profit for that booking" then I could understand being generous.
But the problem there is that most owners will probably have an annual real profit of a trivial amount, so what is the "profit" per week ?
Its an even smaller amount that is refundable, and most holidaymakers would not see it that way and thus not see the so called generosity.

No, I think Cereza's point is valid. Your responsibility is to ensure the Villa is available, and you are not responsible for the entire holiday.

Its all very unfortunate, but why should the Villa owner bear the brunt of the disaster ?
What if they had refused a booking from a Portugese family because that week was booked by a Brit who now cannot travel ?

I fear its the same argument that restaurant and bar owners should bear the brunt of the fall of the Pound.

[Lesley Jean]

Rich I know what you mean and in an ideal world it would be nice to give a little back to the families who have missed out, but as you say the villa owners also have to make their profit and it isn't their fault the volcano blew up!!

[e-richard]

Actually, I did have TWO families in two separate Villas who were stuck in CVO when the first major flight cancellations happened last month.
We managed to arrange on-going accommodation for all of them while waiting for flights. I charged them what I thought was a "reasonable" amount that the airlines would pay out and they were all exceedingly grateful, and happily paid up instantly.

So, my conscience is clear, and it proves that a professional approach works.

[Farol]

I think this highlights why you should always have terms & conditions covering your bookings. These should make clear what a client's cancellation rights are and what fees/refunds apply under different circumstances.

I agree with cereza that you are not providing a package holiday just accommodation. If people had booked a hotel direct and were travelling independently I doubt very much that any hotels would refund.

You had a contract to make the accomodation available on the dates booked at the price agreed. You kept to your side of the contract.

Sounds tough but that is business.

[Bristle Si]

I suppose it depends how 'commercial' private villa owners are.

We stay in a 2 bed apartment in Monte CVO (have done for many years now) and we have to pay the balance 6-8 weeks before. But our 'arrangement' with the owner is flexible.
Back in the summer of 2008 my wife's father passed away a few days before we were due in CVO. I'd already paid the balance by then.
The apartment owner said that we could go a week later than planned as there was no other booking, so the weekend after the funeral that's what we did - exactly 1 week after our scheduled arrival - we were so grateful and even more so when the owner had also told us that if we couldn't make it at all that year she'd let us 'carry over' our payment to Summer 09. Now that's what i call 'service'.

I understand what a few of you are saying on here, about it being tough, but imagine what you'd feel like if you were the ones renting and the owner refused to give you any money back - you'd be not too pleased i suspect. Plus, think of the bad publicity you could get - internet forums are quite powerful communication tools these days. And presuming you are all renting within the law and declaring your earnings where required - if not, people could easily stitch you up, so be careful.

[snowytheboy]

I think anybody who keeps the full amount is just being greedy and taking advantage of the situation. Surely if you rent out your villa, you include in the price amounts for wear and tear, electricity, water, cleaning etc. - none of which you have had to pay for. These were extraordinary circumstances so why not, at least, go 50/50 with your customers and be equally out of pocket.

[cereza]

I agree with you snowy. Technically I believe that you have no obligation to make any refund but morally and for the sake of future business you should be helpful. I had someone staying in my place flying out yesterday but because of the ash uncertainty at the last minute they switched flights to Sunday to get out of Gatwick before a possible shut down - I happily agreed to them arriving a day early at no extra charge and sorted their hire car out.
It's all about goodwill

[Bruce Wallis]

I think we have a consensus here......

We rent out our villas, assuming that it is the task of the client to get out and back to Carvoeiro, and pay any other costs.
Richard makes the valid point that we have no way of recovering our own ongoing costs.

I feel no moral duty to refund in the event of a no, or delayed show. It may sound harsh, but they are still renting the property whether or not they are actually occupying it.
If we sold a package, including flights and care hire, then that would be a totally different matter.

Having said that, we have allowed people caught by the ash to overstay, without charge, for a couple of days, and been prepared to let our management company use our place, if empty, for people who get stranded, at cost....ie the cost of electricity and the maids wages.

[snowytheboy]

Don't know what makes you think you have a concensus. I think guilt is getting the better of you and you are trying to convince yourself, by looking for agreement from other owners, that what you are doing is OK.

Your customers who failed to appear did not do so out of choice and it is heartening to see that you are so sympathetic towards people whose holiday has been ruined and are still having to pay for the privilege. The least you could do would be to offer them an alternative date, free of charge, when your property would not be in use anyway.

[cereza]

Oh snowy - get into the real world!! Maybe you are wealthy enough to be philanthropic but most people can't afford to be so generous as you suggest. The economics of having a holiday home which relies on rentals does not leave room for charity even though everyone would love to be in that position. Owners in the main help as much as possible and it is appreciated by the holiday makers. Stop trying to be so argumentative - there's enough of that already on this forum

[pato]

Stop trying to be so argumentative - there's enough of that already on this forum

Yeah! I've noticed that too.

[widge]

During July & August most villas / appartments will be fully booked. It's probable that, if on changeover day the new arrivals are stranded in UK, then those due to depart are stranded too.
Allowing stranded guests to stay in your home free of charge seems reasonable if expected clients are unable to fly. I would neither refund payments nor charge extra, if the villa is occupied & paid for that's my obligation met.