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The best thiefs in the world....
Matt, Rodney King was a prime example of americas fear of the black man - I had mentioned it before, but I thought it was such a good film on that subject I urge everybody to watch it - bowling for columbine.
In this case, I do not think we need to worry about similar incidents, as the historical background of Portugals ethnic differences in its own country is a lot less bloody.
I´d like to think, that if you didnt break the law, you'd have nothing to fear.
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Prevention?
The social differences are what cause most of the crimes described previously. People who have nothing go to a place where people have something to take away. Interestingly, politicians have a strange habit of worsening these situations, by creating a "bairro", or poor neighbourhood just on the edge of town where they then proceed to huddle together socially weak families. The main effect, besides them having to look at the big, expensive cars that pass there every day en route to Carvoeiro, is a concentration of potencial criminal energy. Wether it is the youngster with no perspective or the familiy with no money, everyone is guaranteed to find somebody in the same boat.
Worth noticing also, that although Lagoa itself offers the most permanent employment opportunities in the council, this particular bairro was set up almost as far away from the city as possible.
Depending on where you stand (lets just take the foreign resident's perspective on this one), this looks like another prime example of how the local govt feels about foreigners - leave you money and p*ss off.
- Over decades poeple have invested billions in Carvoeiro to turn it into a presentable resort with luxurious urbanisations, modern houses and good facilities. This development has made Lagoa one of the richest councils in the Algarve!
The town hall then turns around and puts a socially degraded neighbourhood at the gates of town (you could not get around it if you tried!) I swear there is no council in the Algarve that makes foreigners (residents or not) feel more un-welcome.
The way I see it, its not the social differences that have to be blamed. They exist and have to be dealt with by distributing available funds to create opportunities for people to earn a living.
The blame for the situations we are experiencing in our council goes to the Camera Municipal de Lagoa - for politics which serve one purpose, lining politicians pockets and keeping them in power.
I am not worried about a police officer using regime methods to "reform" a criminal. I am worried about politicians using the same corrupt politics from the regime era to run a country.
In this case, I do not think we need to worry about similar incidents, as the historical background of Portugals ethnic differences in its own country is a lot less bloody.
I´d like to think, that if you didnt break the law, you'd have nothing to fear.
---------
Prevention?
The social differences are what cause most of the crimes described previously. People who have nothing go to a place where people have something to take away. Interestingly, politicians have a strange habit of worsening these situations, by creating a "bairro", or poor neighbourhood just on the edge of town where they then proceed to huddle together socially weak families. The main effect, besides them having to look at the big, expensive cars that pass there every day en route to Carvoeiro, is a concentration of potencial criminal energy. Wether it is the youngster with no perspective or the familiy with no money, everyone is guaranteed to find somebody in the same boat.
Worth noticing also, that although Lagoa itself offers the most permanent employment opportunities in the council, this particular bairro was set up almost as far away from the city as possible.
Depending on where you stand (lets just take the foreign resident's perspective on this one), this looks like another prime example of how the local govt feels about foreigners - leave you money and p*ss off.
- Over decades poeple have invested billions in Carvoeiro to turn it into a presentable resort with luxurious urbanisations, modern houses and good facilities. This development has made Lagoa one of the richest councils in the Algarve!
The town hall then turns around and puts a socially degraded neighbourhood at the gates of town (you could not get around it if you tried!) I swear there is no council in the Algarve that makes foreigners (residents or not) feel more un-welcome.
The way I see it, its not the social differences that have to be blamed. They exist and have to be dealt with by distributing available funds to create opportunities for people to earn a living.
The blame for the situations we are experiencing in our council goes to the Camera Municipal de Lagoa - for politics which serve one purpose, lining politicians pockets and keeping them in power.
I am not worried about a police officer using regime methods to "reform" a criminal. I am worried about politicians using the same corrupt politics from the regime era to run a country.
In this case, the reasons for the rodney king video are irrelevant- it is a prime example of police abusing power.
I totally agree with you on the "bairro" point. In my experience, people stick with their own-I too am from such a place, although i have been raised with the values that do not fit such a place. But while we have rich and poor instead of equality-these bairros will always exist, wether it is in a physical sense( were communities start up) or in the relationships people form that in turn form societies (the friends you will be closest with generally be in the same boat as you) It is this inequality that must be erradicated in relation to human kind as a whole - that is prevention.
Matt
I see how this could be a problem for someone who has something to protect. The problem is not were these areas go-but why we have them in the first place. There is enough wealth to go around in portugal, and the rest of the world-so until economic equality is achieved there will be rich and poor, exploitation from the rich on the poor, and the crime.The town hall then turns around and puts a socially degraded neighbourhood at the gates of town (you could not get around it if you tried!)
I totally agree with you on the "bairro" point. In my experience, people stick with their own-I too am from such a place, although i have been raised with the values that do not fit such a place. But while we have rich and poor instead of equality-these bairros will always exist, wether it is in a physical sense( were communities start up) or in the relationships people form that in turn form societies (the friends you will be closest with generally be in the same boat as you) It is this inequality that must be erradicated in relation to human kind as a whole - that is prevention.
Intresting point, but what I would ask you to consider is who really holds the power in any society ? The politician? I dont think they do. It is the fat cats who run the big business. They provide the wages, they dictate what the people do for those wages. They own the people financially, the strongest hold, because if you dont have money, you dont eat. They too provide the govt with taxes from the peoples wages- and a police force is needed to protect their intrests. In capitalist countries the only role the politicians play is to prop up the system that is in place. As a crude example, do you think if all the business' in Lagoa decided to sell up, and the buyers didnt continue the business, that the govt. in place right now would have any kind of power? They would be recieving no income, and everyone who lost their jobs isnt going to be paying any tax, they will be on the dole. So the council would be paying out, but will get nothing in return, so the locally economy would collapse, and with it any govt.I am worried about politicians using the same corrupt politics from the regime era to run a country.
Matt
Matt, you are really only touching on two levels of criminality - those of Societal and ecological, in total there are eight, unfortunately all the research over hundreds of years has found no answer to all of these and only a couple of good ideas which impact on some - cognitive behavioural approaches with levels 1 to 5 (which include the ones you are touching on which are Level 1 - Society, i.e. control theories etc which say you have to have an investement in society to abide it's rules and Level 3 - Ecological theories - those that say that certain places have types of crime attached to them and that almost whoever lives there will inevitably end up entrenched in it).
I will not bore you with the others, and I like you simply wish were some answers - unfortunately equality of wealth will do nothing to impact on drug crime, GBH, or sexual/domestic abuse for example.
Maddi
I will not bore you with the others, and I like you simply wish were some answers - unfortunately equality of wealth will do nothing to impact on drug crime, GBH, or sexual/domestic abuse for example.
Maddi
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Guest
i am afraid matt that your knowledge of portugal and business is limited..it is a fact that most businesses here work hard to keep these officials in power...in other countries its the government which works to supports its people..here the opposite since all these camaras have the power to grant or make life difficult which they do all the time by giving out or not giving licences and allow someone to make a living.
believe me that if you ever start a business...half the job is getting the work and the other half getting paid....you dont need all these camaras trying to make life even harder..which is exactly what they do.
dont be too critical of capitalism...where did 60 years of communism get eastern europe?...well i know sadly a lot of them are here working for peanuts and being cheated even then. as for capitalism producing criminals ..yes...and a lot of the easten europe mafia that are now in portugal are ex kgb officers who seem to have had no difficulty in switching from "socialist principlas" to running criminal organisations..
believe me that if you ever start a business...half the job is getting the work and the other half getting paid....you dont need all these camaras trying to make life even harder..which is exactly what they do.
dont be too critical of capitalism...where did 60 years of communism get eastern europe?...well i know sadly a lot of them are here working for peanuts and being cheated even then. as for capitalism producing criminals ..yes...and a lot of the easten europe mafia that are now in portugal are ex kgb officers who seem to have had no difficulty in switching from "socialist principlas" to running criminal organisations..
Hi Matt
I think perhaps you were being a little too general, and that happens when you are studying, you look at one specific area and can see how things fit within in it and you become 'sold' on the explanation and then you move on to another area of study and and 'buy' that - then suddenly you find you have learnt a whole lot of stuff that contradicts itself but you have got a qualification - great isn't it?!!!!
Criminal Psychology is my thing really and my day-to-day job is working as a Treatment Manager within the Probation Service, having previously worked for a few years in the prison system. I was also a National Trainer for one of the CB approaches so I can throw facts and fallacies at you left, right and centre but as I mentioned earlier - absolutely no 'one fit' answers!!!
Anyway feel free to ask me any questions, or to open debate and discussion with me, you can always PM me if you want or if I can be any help (or perhaps to play devils advocate
)
Maddi
I think perhaps you were being a little too general, and that happens when you are studying, you look at one specific area and can see how things fit within in it and you become 'sold' on the explanation and then you move on to another area of study and and 'buy' that - then suddenly you find you have learnt a whole lot of stuff that contradicts itself but you have got a qualification - great isn't it?!!!!
Criminal Psychology is my thing really and my day-to-day job is working as a Treatment Manager within the Probation Service, having previously worked for a few years in the prison system. I was also a National Trainer for one of the CB approaches so I can throw facts and fallacies at you left, right and centre but as I mentioned earlier - absolutely no 'one fit' answers!!!
Anyway feel free to ask me any questions, or to open debate and discussion with me, you can always PM me if you want or if I can be any help (or perhaps to play devils advocate
)Maddi
Firstly, Guest, I think you have probably misunderstood my comments. My comments were more aimed at world economics, not just small business start up. Your comments reflect the difficulties on how it is to start up a business, but how does that criticise my comments which are addressed to current business'? This "power" you describe is one of simple beuracracy, a power of veto even. This is not true power. Your criticism does not reflect current business, which is what i am talking about, for example, can you suggest any evidence that suggests it is hard for current business' to keep a license, do the majority of profit making business' lose their license just so the council can make lives difficult?
I resent your comment saying that they stop you "making a living". What businesses start up just to make a living, surely the aim is to make a profit? Maybe thats my limited knowledge of business? Surely it would be easier to just get a simple part time job to stay alive, than going through the risks and stress of starting a business?
Finally, your comments on the failure of communism lack any depth. Communsim started badly originally because Lenin went against Marx's theory that capitalism was need before a socialist change can occur, Russia was still feudal in 1917. This was corrected from 1921-28 with the NEP, basically a capitalist economic policy. You should not think that socialism in the future has to have such an oppresive regime that kills 24 mill as with Stalin, and the attrocities of Mao in China. Marx never dictated that this should be apart of communism-that was again an adaptation of the original communist manifesto. The core countries of the west, mainly the UK an US have industrilised,created enough profit and
our societies have adapted democracy, so that the conditions are ready for a peaceful, democractic socialist system. Granted, in my opinion, Portugal is not at this stage yet, but it soon will be. I truly believe that the minority exploiting the majority will not last forever, and one day the change will be made- this should not be feared as the western govts. make out. It is they, who need to protect multi national corps to protect their own position, who have attached a fatalism with communism that unfortunatley is believed by people like you self.
Matt
PS thanks for your offer Maddi, once I have learnt more, I may want to spar with you! Could you recommend any good reading on the subject?
I resent your comment saying that they stop you "making a living". What businesses start up just to make a living, surely the aim is to make a profit? Maybe thats my limited knowledge of business? Surely it would be easier to just get a simple part time job to stay alive, than going through the risks and stress of starting a business?
Finally, your comments on the failure of communism lack any depth. Communsim started badly originally because Lenin went against Marx's theory that capitalism was need before a socialist change can occur, Russia was still feudal in 1917. This was corrected from 1921-28 with the NEP, basically a capitalist economic policy. You should not think that socialism in the future has to have such an oppresive regime that kills 24 mill as with Stalin, and the attrocities of Mao in China. Marx never dictated that this should be apart of communism-that was again an adaptation of the original communist manifesto. The core countries of the west, mainly the UK an US have industrilised,created enough profit and
our societies have adapted democracy, so that the conditions are ready for a peaceful, democractic socialist system. Granted, in my opinion, Portugal is not at this stage yet, but it soon will be. I truly believe that the minority exploiting the majority will not last forever, and one day the change will be made- this should not be feared as the western govts. make out. It is they, who need to protect multi national corps to protect their own position, who have attached a fatalism with communism that unfortunatley is believed by people like you self.
Matt
PS thanks for your offer Maddi, once I have learnt more, I may want to spar with you! Could you recommend any good reading on the subject?
Matt
Get back to me with what sort of areas you want to cover in particular, if you are simply interested in Criminal Psychology, the levels of criminality or Cognitive Behavioural Approaches. Perhaps you would also be interested in "What Works" and the Evidence Based Practice theme in relaationship to offending.
I suspect you will be more interested at this point in your studies at looking at perhaps the more wider view of criminality and possibly the type of the offending that has it's roots in some of the Societal theories such as Contol Theory, Feminist Theories, etc.
Anyway signpost me a little and I will point you in the direction of some relevant reading, it is worth baring in mind, that I have been there and done that with S-O-R-C and am pretty much sold on the relationship between thoughts, feelings and behaviour within the context of self (values and attitudes) and environment so I guess I shall be attempting to stand my ground from that place. It would be good if what you have to spar with challenges that CB approach - I suspect I would make a reasonable argument thats takes us back to cognition but who knows!!!
Maddi
Get back to me with what sort of areas you want to cover in particular, if you are simply interested in Criminal Psychology, the levels of criminality or Cognitive Behavioural Approaches. Perhaps you would also be interested in "What Works" and the Evidence Based Practice theme in relaationship to offending.
I suspect you will be more interested at this point in your studies at looking at perhaps the more wider view of criminality and possibly the type of the offending that has it's roots in some of the Societal theories such as Contol Theory, Feminist Theories, etc.
Anyway signpost me a little and I will point you in the direction of some relevant reading, it is worth baring in mind, that I have been there and done that with S-O-R-C and am pretty much sold on the relationship between thoughts, feelings and behaviour within the context of self (values and attitudes) and environment so I guess I shall be attempting to stand my ground from that place. It would be good if what you have to spar with challenges that CB approach - I suspect I would make a reasonable argument thats takes us back to cognition but who knows!!!
Maddi
Right Ok, you will have to give me a while before I even step foot in the ring! The next section I will be doing is crime and devience. I will be focused upon the sociological rooting of it, and imparticular the main theories of what causes this behaviour. What would be most helpful would be to point me in the direction of finding out what the perspectives are, based around left and right wing viewpoints. Could you give me any names of sociologists who are based in this field, or if you know of any of their studies in to crime and devience? Thats what would be most hopeful to my qualification- but I also like to learn things other than what to write on an exam! So if theres anything you found particularly interesting that maybe would be too complex for A level, I would still be very interested to read it. Ok, so if you can work out what I need from this random ramble you would be doing me a great favour, and add to my "must read" mountain! Thanks again,
Matt
Matt
OK Matt, I will take your rambling, decipher it and try to come up with a reading list, but it will be tomorrow now as I want to ensure it is the latest stuff from our current trainees. What I will try to do is limit it to what fits in best with your studies. I suspect that in a short while, not only will you be able to give me a run for my money but will be quoting research at me that I haven't got round to reading.
Crime and Deviance, will take you to the Levels of Explanation in Criminalogical Theories that I have been talking about, which identifies causes (??!!) of offending and the illustrative theories that support those views. As I said yesterday Society is only one level. If you only ever draw one conclusion in an essay on the subject that conclusion probably needs to be that most offenders can fall into any number of the levels of criminality and it is highly improbable that an offender could simply be in one.
e.g. One offender may say all of these -
"No job, no prospects, I have to nick to get what you have"
"Everyone round here does a bit nicking and handling"
"Got kicked out of school and started around with what people said was the wrong crowd but I fitted in there and was liked"
"Every day you got the opportunity to buy some stuff and sell it on"
" Everybody nicks stuff"
One offender perhaps but the comments fall into five different Levels of Explanation in Criminalogical Theories
Anyway blah blah now you could go here
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/cogbeh.pdf
and look at pages 33 - 38 (please note Levels 3 and 4 have been inverted in text - poor editing!!!)
Maddi
Crime and Deviance, will take you to the Levels of Explanation in Criminalogical Theories that I have been talking about, which identifies causes (??!!) of offending and the illustrative theories that support those views. As I said yesterday Society is only one level. If you only ever draw one conclusion in an essay on the subject that conclusion probably needs to be that most offenders can fall into any number of the levels of criminality and it is highly improbable that an offender could simply be in one.
e.g. One offender may say all of these -
"No job, no prospects, I have to nick to get what you have"
"Everyone round here does a bit nicking and handling"
"Got kicked out of school and started around with what people said was the wrong crowd but I fitted in there and was liked"
"Every day you got the opportunity to buy some stuff and sell it on"
" Everybody nicks stuff"
One offender perhaps but the comments fall into five different Levels of Explanation in Criminalogical Theories
Anyway blah blah now you could go here
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/cogbeh.pdf
and look at pages 33 - 38 (please note Levels 3 and 4 have been inverted in text - poor editing!!!)
Maddi
Thanks loads, dont put yourself out too much!
I was thinking last night at how vast the subject really is, when you think in terms of the amount of different criminals there are,and sociology and psychology themselves are so vast in explaining it, each with their own conflicting theories etc. Great stuff,
Matt
I was thinking last night at how vast the subject really is, when you think in terms of the amount of different criminals there are,and sociology and psychology themselves are so vast in explaining it, each with their own conflicting theories etc. Great stuff,
Matt
Hi Matt
Here is a reading list, have picked the ones which make the easiest reading, hopefully you may already be familiar with them and perhaps they are on your existing reading list.
Criminology 2nd Edition - Stephen Jones - Butterworths London 2001
Introduction to Criminological Theory - Roger Burke - Willan Publishing Cullumpton Devon 2003
Sociology Making Sense of Society - Ian Marsh 2nd Edition - Pearson Education Ltd Harlow Essex 2000
Anyway, we should probably stop using cvo.com as a forum for this depth of debate, although I guess you know by now that I can't help myself Please do PM me if you want any more info and of course you can always start another debate - perhaps in Smokey Joes.
Maddi
Here is a reading list, have picked the ones which make the easiest reading, hopefully you may already be familiar with them and perhaps they are on your existing reading list.
Criminology 2nd Edition - Stephen Jones - Butterworths London 2001
Introduction to Criminological Theory - Roger Burke - Willan Publishing Cullumpton Devon 2003
Sociology Making Sense of Society - Ian Marsh 2nd Edition - Pearson Education Ltd Harlow Essex 2000
Anyway, we should probably stop using cvo.com as a forum for this depth of debate, although I guess you know by now that I can't help myself
Please do PM me if you want any more info and of course you can always start another debate - perhaps in Smokey Joes.Maddi
Please do carry on, it is a very interesting read and I am still trying to organize my thoughts on this subject (its getting so complex - the proverbial can of worms). The carneval hangover is not helping at the moment either.maddi wrote: Anyway, we should probably stop using cvo.com as a forum for this depth of debate
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Gerry Cullen
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