EVEN MORE UP MARKET DEVELOPMENTS ???

Bruxinha · Post by **Bruxinha** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:16 pm

Let's face it, the human race seems hell bent on destroying its environment, so why should the Algarve be any different

As I said before, a few more golf courses and developments might increase a few people's bank balances but I don't see it enhancing the quality of life for the average Portuguese person down the road. The existing problems with Portugal will continue, mostly their own fault for being short-sighted and not paying into their own coffers, especially the ones in the know.

How many Portuguese people will be buying a house on the site???? It will probably just become another Northern European ghetto.

But then life ain't fair is it?

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:50 pm

I agree, the last place we want to live on is an expat ghetto.

It will not surprise yuo to to here the comments of a restaurant owner we have got to know.

He sees fewer " wealthier " portuguese spending time in the Algarve every year.

Why " it is becomimg " too Foreign " and expensive for them.

They are now seeking out newer . cheaper destinations like Brazil.

They see too many signs in English, too many english menus etc.

Hoepfully it will never go the way of parts of Spain but the signs are their in some places.

denniscash · Post by **denniscash** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:24 am

I agree to the point of making more developments in Portugal, of course it affects different aspects in one way or the other. But Portugal (algarve) definately has to be develloped to a better scale, as long as we have nice resorts coming up, it will only bring the prices up of properties, and there will be a new destination for holidays in Europe. Isnt that good for the people who have businesses and properties. As long as the areas are develloped to top standards, its always a better thing for the residents and the face of the country. There is however other developments coming up in Carvoeiro area, like a Luxury Resort near Golden Club Carvoeiro..they promise to have there 2 and 3 bedroom townhouses in a closed 5 star condominium..imagine when this will be completed, dont you guys think the prices for the properties standing around the resort and facing the resort will not rise?? of course they will.. i am myself looking into buying a 2bedroom townhouse there for investment point of view. The Imocom Group and IRG (Christies´s affiliates) look like a very compitent and professional companies, why not invest into their product if you will get good investment oportunity.?

so much for my opinion guys, thanks tbbr for the topic..

denniscash · Post by **denniscash** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:31 am

i wouldnt actually agree with you on this point.. most of the portuguese will get in fact rich and not become a ghetto.. look at how much land they own and buildings around it...i mean if i had 2000 m2 next to a development, i would make something of it, or sell it to the developer, if they would not have asked for it allready..portuguese people get rich over night here because of the tourists and immigrants to portugal., where looking more into history, the Portuguese living in the algarve were the poorest people in the country..why? because the land near the coast was worthless, only the inland was good for agriculture and other purposes... check the last 30 years of the algarve, people were still riding donkeys, and now they ride mercedes..see the drastic change?.. as far as the environment is concerned, nobody is building factories here, they will never do in fact.. so as long as we have exotic resorts here and golfcourses, its just a more beauty to the country...

thanks

tbbr · Post by **tbbr** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:17 pm

A contoversial response Denniscash which will not be popular with many forum members.

I have still not made up my mind which side of the fence I stand.
As potential property owners ( and golfers ) we view the developments with favour as they could ? raise values and improve facilities and the infrastructure.

However will the " charms " of the Algarve that originally attracted us be lost in favour of a sunny surbrbanism.
If the wealth generated ( and it will be considerable ) could be seen to benefit local commumities would that be so bad.
There has been a trend in recent years in the UK for developers ( housing and commercial ) to pay for road and community improvments as part of their planning permissions.
This may be a radical step BUT perhaps any aspiring local politicians who reads this forum and is really interested in the future of the Algarve could build a platform based on environmentally friendly sustainable developments that will benefit the " have nots " as well as the mercedes/bmw owners.
I know nothing of the " political " structures in the Algarve but there must be viable alternatives to the current systems.

What we do not want is for there to rise a radical anti development, anti foreigner faction which could so easily happen.

Guestish · Post by **Guestish** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:20 pm

Nice to get an unbiased view from someone connected with the development industry

Guestish · Post by **Guestish** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:21 pm

ie Dennis not tbbr

Bruxinha · Post by **Bruxinha** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:09 pm

denniscash wrote:i wouldnt actually agree with you on this point.. most of the portuguese will get in fact rich and not become a ghetto..

I am sorry dennis I just don't see "most" Portuguese getting rich, only a few. Most of the Portuguese people I know don't own land or even their own house and are getting resentful that despite all the hours they work doing 2 or 3 jobs in bars and restaurants etc they still can't afford to buy a house and end up living in a small apartment in Lagoa or in Enxerim in Silves. They are also the ones mostly keeping this country afloat by paying "caixa" and "iva", whilst the wealthy ones and professionals don't because they know how to dodge it. Come down to some bars in Silves and have a chat with a few like I do on a regular basis. Sure, there are a few VERY well off Portuguese, some via hard work and determination, some via luck or family inheritance of land etc and some via other more dubious means.

Only time will tell. When the development near me is finished and if I am still in the Algarve or visiting, I'll go along and count how many Portuguese people live there and see how many have got rich off of the back of it.

I know it is life and life ain't fair, I know it is what is called "progress" and you can't halt it but people shouldn't put blinkers on and expect there not to also be some negative aspects to all this. How would most UK citizens feel if suddenly a load of developments sprung up in the green belt and every one of the properties was owned by a Portuguese or Greek and the average UK citizen couldn't afford to live in the area any more and had to go and live in some apartment on the outskirts of town? Human nature is human nature and whether we like it or not there will be resentment. Unless you fully communicate with everyone in their language and not just a few Portuguese developers and land owners, you won't get a true reflection of the society. Don't kid yourself they are ALL welcoming you with open arms. Some will but a sizeable proportion won't unless they all see some big improvements in their daily lot.

digger · Post by **digger** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:38 pm

I’m inclined to agree with some of what denniscash says.
If you’re an expat property owner living in a ‘nice’ part of Algarve and developers want to build more ‘nice’ classy expensive bits next door, then look on the bright side. This is assuming you are an investor or see your property as an investment. But if you see your property as nothing more than your home where you want to spend the rest of your days in peace, then you’re on the loosing end.

denniscash · Post by **denniscash** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:42 pm

fair enough, your statement, but we are getting in a political debate right now, and i dont really wanna talk about the portuguese politics and its goverment..because all people talk about it and absolutely nothing is done, just few cosmetic changes are made, in order "not to take the bone from the dog" if you know what i mean. The EU has its own problems to deal with, and cannot control Portuguese politics. However, we "average people and citizens" cannot do anything about it either, unless there is actions taking place like orange plot "Ukraine". Thats why i am saying that we have to live in where we have decided, if we dont like things in the country, we are free to go... I am telling this from experience, i have changed my place of residence 5 times in different EU countries..and by far most, Portugal is the one that is less complicated within Politics, Social and any other issues. especially easy to deal with problems, although it takes time... anyways, back to the topic of new developments and Portuguese people..

I still agree that there should be new developments coming up, of course good quality only, like the Vila Vita for example or The Lake Resort in Vilamoura, or any exotic type of developments.. not just blocks of concrete.. as long as there will be developments, there will be always jobs available for local people and international people as well...ok it takes some geographical space, but it also gives an area a bit of extravagance...and any portuguese person who is at least a bit educated can work in a development. Read this issue of The Resident.."article about Troja Island in Setubal area." Developments, developments and more golf courses.. the island itself will give work force for 10,000 people... so developments are not as bad as they look, as long as they fit in correctly in the area.

ok thanks again, i hope i didnt offend anyone with this post

Bruxinha · Post by **Bruxinha** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:54 pm

Fair point Digger but I am purely thinking of the Portuguese down here, who on the whole aren't investors and who are getting a bit miffed. I personally don't care about developments. I love cities perhaps more than I do countryside, so a bit more concrete won't bother me that much. Only time will tell as always. I just hope I can continue going into my local bars without getting grief because I am seen as yet another Northern European in town. However much we spout on about raising the economy and investments the average person down here don't seem to see it that way I'm afraid and that Anglo-Portuguese friendship history stuff is wearing a bit thin and living on borrowed time.

Bruxinha · Post by **Bruxinha** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:05 pm

By the way denniscash, I can't speak for others but you certainly haven't offended me. I like to hear all opinions and views, as I too have the right to express my thoughts and feelings. I am quite sure I offend people occasionally because of my outspokeness but better that than to have no thoughts, opinions or ideas

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:17 pm

It's interesting the word progress and how each individual sees it.

As human beings, we are destroying our environment and as far as I am concerned we are going backwards and that is a fact.

I am going to save as much grass as I can and have it placed in crionic-
suspension in the hope that furture generations will know what it looks like, taste like and smells like.

As for the economic situation of Portugal, well all I can say to that is the revolution was nearly 30years ago, yet we still have very poor Portuguese some living in hovels without toliets and no teeth in their heads because they cannot afford to go to a dentist and most certainly without jobs. Yet for the past 25yrs or constructed has seen rows upon rows of wonderful and LUXURY properties and by the way lets have some more and this time lets really help the Portuguese people. I have personally expereince with various developers and I can asure you they use the chepaest labour they can find which are not Portuguese.

Amen.

denniscash1 · Post by **denniscash1** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:43 pm

whats wrong with using the cheapest labour? as long as the developers use good materials, it doesnt matter who installs the materials and builds a development.. if some portuguese people dont want to work for a bit less money, thats their issue.. let them talk to their government and get paid job less money per month so they dont do anything...just like in any other country....a cheap labour you are saying, indeed if you compare it with other countries? a average construction worker gets 1,000€ and above.. is that peanuts???

as far as concerning developments, its always important to see who is developing the projects.. before i buy a property in development, i would realy study the developer and who is building what.. of course there are things that we cannot control, but there are always chances of comparing the things. which is better and why etc... i wouldnt buy anything from a developer who i hardly know..there is always a risk that some developments dont get completed, as i mentioned above its a trust in developer and their appearance on the market.. its like comparing two products and which to go for.. a coca cola or a loca cola... also each developer has its own style of building, where one uses more environmental surroundings and preserving more green area, and where others just pour in cement allover leaving 1 tree or so... anyways, thats my argument..

Guesty · Post by **Guesty** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:51 pm

Interesting topic. Definately developers have own syle here is a good example that you can compare is two developments. As Cascatas in Vilamoura and Golden Club Carvoeiro. The prices are not much different, but a big diferentce in style.

EVEN MORE UP MARKET DEVELOPMENTS ???

developments

Bruxinha..

Re: Bruxinha..