petrol prices & the cost of living

[ditzy]

not for the first time we found ourselves asking, how on earth do the locals manage to afford to live here?

You break into holiday villas and cars.

Great attitude Pato...

[sunman]

I think it's a bit naive to think that there's much difference between the cost of living here and the UK

I filled up with petrol this morning, in Cepsa on the Lagoa Roundabout, 95 sem chumbo €1.513 per litre; diesel is definitely cheaper here, €1.32 per litre

I asked the receptionist where she (the locals) do their shopping; the consensus was Pingo Doce, (used to be Plus) or Pao do acucar near Slide & Splash, I think that's probably ASDA equivalent so I looked up some prices


Orange Juice £0.87 in Asda €1.19 in Pingo Doce
Pork Mince £4.97 kg Asda €4.99 in Pingo Doce
piece of salmon £16.29 kg Asda €14.99 in Pingo Doce
water 1.5l £0.50p Asda €0.60 in Pingo Doce

new car prices, as we know are obscene here, 25% higher on average

electricity is expensive too, a 3 or 4 bedroom villa is now at or over €200 pcm, €2,500-€3,000 per year

I'm not trying to say it's expensive; it's definitely not cheap but hourly pay for the ordinary family Portuguese is significantly lower than the UK and so in relative terms is very expensive for them.

[HampshireRich]

It is obviously more expensive for tourists in the Algarve as we tend to shop local and i suspect the locals know ehre to go.

Whilst comparing costs and the like, does anyone know what the rate of Income tax is in Portugal and do they have the equivalent of National Insurance? In the UK it is I believe one of the highest in Europe - at least 11% NI plus 21% Income Tax - and don't forget that although we pay 11% NI, that is not taken into consideration when calculating Income tax - so on basic tax rates, for every £100 earned, you pay £12 NI (including a separate 1% brought in by Mr Brown a few years ago on all earnngs) and get taxed on £100 at 21% (£21) so pay £33 total in tax.

[R.Wethereyet]

Here in Portugal Seguranca Social - NI equivalent, is also 11% for the employee but a massive 23.75% for the majority of employers. There are certain employees who pay less than this, for instance if you work for Portugal Telecom or CTT (post office), you pay nothing and PT/CTT pays only 7.8%. Both state run!!!!! There are a few other tax rates but this is the norm.

Income tax is as follows.

Tax % Tax Base (Euro)
10.5% up to 4,793
13% 4,794-7250
23.5% 7,251-17,979
34% 17,980-41,349
36.5% 41,350-59,926
40% 59,927-64,623
42% 64,624 and over

The biggest problem for the Algarve is that most employees are only on 6 month or temporary contracts, and are mostly on the minimum wage - C.€500/month plus tips. The employers won't give permanent contracts because they are not required for 12 months a year, so this means that many who work here have two or sometimes three jobs to earn enough to live, and then collect about €200 per month from the social fund (dole) when out of work through the winter months. However the 'dole' is a last resort for the majority, as they prefer to work, unlike many in the UK.

Unfortunately tourism has had it's negative side, many businesses and business owners 'milk' the tourist for as much as they can, hence prices here are well above the national average, but the unfortunate residents/workers local and expat, have to pay these increased prices as well. It then becomes a 'catch 22' situation. Locals need more to live on, so prices continue to spiral., so tourists are expected to pay more.

We have noticed that in the seven years we have lived here our annual budget/spend has nearly doubled, and as for fuel, when we first arrived diesel was 65 cents a litre, today it was €1.359.

I doubt that the UK has seen such an increase in the same period.

[Matryx]

I just filled up on the M62 and it cost £1.40/lt, and it was pissing it down as usual, so I know where I'd rather be

[EMM]

Diesel used to be cheaper than petrol in the UK but governments on the basis of that fuel being " dirty " substantially increased the duty , With each tax change the gap seems to widen.
Clearly those of us who are not bothered with known brands and have got to know the area can find better value thon those who just stick to the big supermarkets.
Pinge Doce is a good example, we buy many of their own brands, soy sauce is soy sauce so why pay the premium for Amoy.
The same goes for Bread and Sugar ( Pau a sucar ). They now do their own ranges of dips and salsas , 50% of the cost of brands you would recognise in the UK.
We buy local cuts of meat , sausages, bacon etc.

Yes we do have friends who cannot survive without their frozen Warbutton sliced bread, english bacon and their deliveries via Teso and Asda and yes we have to listen to them complaining about the costs of these foodstuffs in Portugal.

[bruce]

Aldi and Lidl are very cheap in the UK - their fruit and vegetables are supposed to be excellent.
Their own brand is 30% cheaper than Asda/Tesco - I think it is just what you get used to, I like Marks & Spencer food and even they have brought their prices down and now stock other labels.

[R.Wethereyet]

Don,t complain about fuel prices in Portugal, Diesel at our local Tesco equivalent of E1.60 ltr.

We stopped off at our local Sainsburys on the way back from the airport on Sunday and compared to what we pay in Continente our bill was probably 20% higher.
If we compare with local market prices , Silves/Lagoa veg is probably 50% cheaper in PT.
You can buy 3 bottle of drinkable wine in PT for 1 in the UK.

Why do you think PT is being talked about as one of the best value holiday destinations for 2011.

I take it Bri Si that you will not be visiting Carvoeiro again as you obviously dislike it so much.

But as you rightly say, the intown shops and places like Intermarche do not always give either good value or quality and as such do not give visitors a true picture of how good Portugal can be for those who can be bothered to look for it.

As for wine, You can keep your industrial ( Sainsbury, Asda. Tesco 3/£10-£12 plonk ). Take off the tax, profits , packaging and there is probably only 30p worth of wine in each bottle.

Diesel used to be cheaper than petrol in the UK but governments on the basis of that fuel being " dirty " substantially increased the duty , With each tax change the gap seems to widen.
Clearly those of us who are not bothered with known brands and have got to know the area can find better value thon those who just stick to the big supermarkets.
Pinge Doce is a good example, we buy many of their own brands, soy sauce is soy sauce so why pay the premium for Amoy.
The same goes for Bread and Sugar ( Pau a sucar ). They now do their own ranges of dips and salsas , 50% of the cost of brands you would recognise in the UK.
We buy local cuts of meat , sausages, bacon etc.

Yes we do have friends who cannot survive without their frozen Warbutton sliced bread, english bacon and their deliveries via Teso and Asda and yes we have to listen to them complaining about the costs of these foodstuffs in Portugal.

EMM.

Many of the 'known brands' as you refer to are manufactured by global groups, Nestle, Kraft, Unilever, Pepsico etc. Very few are UK manufactured that are sold here, many come from Spain and France, but yet the price charged for them here is substantially higher than the same label in the UK and the rest of Europe. We, like many locals, not just the Brits, buy these brands online, ship them here and still save 20 -30% on the local price, even compared to Pingo Doce and Pao de Acucar's own brands, they are still competitive.

Furthermore, not everybody who lives here has the time to wander around the local markets of Silves etc. buying local produce, the time taken to drive the extra distance plus the added cost of fuel means any actual saving is negated, and as I said earlier fuel has increased by over 100% here in 7 years compared to 35% in the UK over the same period, and most utility costs have increased by a similar margin . However, local wages have increased by less than 20% in the same period.

What we are seeing and have seen here on the Algarve for many years is greed by many of the businesses and business owners who still think that the tourist and foreign resident is a cash cow to milked to the extreme. Unfortunately, instead of offering better value for money and a better customer focus to increase their income in the current financial climate, the majority just increase prices yet again to compensate for their reduced turnover.

I don't know who evaluated or wrote the crap about Portugal being one of the best value holiday destinations for 2011, but they obviously didn't spend any time in and around the Algarve to gain this knowledge, presumably they just read the bull that the PT spin doctors have put out recently.

[Bristle Si]

Nice post and a refreshing look thru' NON-Rose tinted glasses!

as my original post yday said the days of a cheap Iberia are long gone.
Good point about driving extra distances to find cheaper food and the cost in petrol/diesel to fund that.
We like Portugal, we love CVO but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be critical of certain aspects, like prices charged by "businesses and business owners who still think that the tourist and foreign resident is a cash cow...."
We'll still come because we love CVO, but others, who may be 1st timers will not return

[R.Wethereyet]

We live in, and love CVO and Portugal as well, but it is not Eutopia as many holidaymakers and property owner tourists like to make out.

It does also seem that anyone who posts anything negative about the place is told to F off somewhere else if they don't like. There are many who come here for holidays who we residents feel the same way about, difference is we don't post it on here.

[EMM]

So the moaning minis are at it again.

Where do you get the idea that fuel prices in the UK have only gone up 35% in the last 7 years, As someone who used to drive 50,000miles year I can tell you that that is far from the case..

For those who can,t be bothered to actually explore the country they are holidaying or staying in then I have no sympathy if you find your selves paying over the odds. " Its your own fault ".

If you think UK popular brands are expensive in Portugal, we were in Sweden at Christmas, there baked beans etc were 30% more than in Portugal.

[R.Wethereyet]

UK fuel price was 90p per litre average (95 Ron unleaded) in Oct 2004 - as per the AA fuel price stats. Decembers 2010 price stats show it as £1.22p. approx 35%.
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuel/
Obviously the AA don't know about these things.

Furthermore, I'm not a moaning mini by the way, I'm a concerned resident and business owner, not tourist, who has seen first hand the damage being caused to the local economy and working population by certain businesses who are so short sighted not to realise that continuing to overprice whilst giving poor service, will eventually come back to haunt them, and in the long term affect the majority, tourists included. Many local workers already struggle to afford to pay the prices being charged, even Pingo Doce has lost a lot of its local business because it has recently started to raise it's prices well above average inflation and that was before the 23% IVA rate was introduced. Many of the younger indigenous population have or are planning to move away because they cannot survive any longer, and when the local workforce begins to decrease and cannot be replaced with similar quality, many who come on here will be the first to complain.

Getting out and about more, to scour the region for the lowest prices is hardly a solution, as the cost of in terms of time, fuel, depreciation etc would be counter productive. Perhaps that is that how you managed to drive 50k per annum in the UK, checking out prices?

As for comparing Sweden's cost for a tin of beans (Heinz I presume) to that in Portugal, is laughable, as the average wage in Sweden is nearly 4 times that of Portugal, 6 times that of the average worker on the Algarve and higher even than that of the UK.

Another irrelevant fact should you need it for future reference though, is that it costs 7000 euros more to buy a Volvo S40 base model here in Portugal than it does in Sweden, yet in the UK the same car would be 5000 euros cheaper than Sweden, 12000euros, a difference of twice the Portuguese annual basic wage.

[alf1956]

good post R.Wethereyet very informative&to the point.just as a matter of interest you say you run a business in cvo,what kind of business is it ?

[dodger]

The rising prices in Algarve is the reason that our party of 16 golfers are heading elsewhere after 3 years in Cvo.

We go in June so the price of golf wasn't actually too bad as there are some good deals on the go at that time of year but our biggest spend is naturally on food and alcohol and with even the local lager coming in at 3 to 3.50 euro a pop it was being felt in the wallet big time.

Combine that with fuel for the cars and we looked elsewhere and are off the Prague instead where beer sells for £1 a pop for a half litre of superb tasting local brew,on my recent trip there food is very inexpensive in comparison and the aforementioned ale sells at that price even in the centre of town and outside at as little as 70p.

Also the company that we are booked with pick you up and transfer you to and from the airport and courses so less strain on the drivers.

By our reckoning instead of spending the average £1000 we will be looking at a spend of nearer £700.............that £300 is 3/4 of our annual golf membership subscription so will come in handy!

[sunman]

So the moaning minis are at it again.

For those who can,t be bothered to actually explore the country they are holidaying or staying in then I have no sympathy if you find your selves paying over the odds. " Its your own fault ".

EMM, I don't know what the moaning minis means or who it refers to but it's quite an unnecessary offensive sounding comment. You'll read other posters on this topic talking about the cost of things here and you'll read above this post that large numbers of golfers are now going elsewhere because of the price of golf, accommodation and eating/ drinking.

I played golf with a friend yesterday and afterwards gave the girl 4 euro's for 2 coffees; she said the price was now €5, a 25% new year increase since December, €2.50 for a coffee in Carvoeiro! I stopped at a petrol station on the way back and checked their price, it's 85 cents!, and it's €1.25 at the tennis club.

you'll see on a previous post here that I researched supermarket prices & compared them to ASDA, they're no different, and neither is the cost of petrol.

Folk here do exchange information about prices of shopping, restaurants, beers, wines etc., and seek out the value, it's time you updated your assumptions because I'm afraid you're way off with your sweeping statements.