Building/Refurbishment project

[shanagarry]

I wonder if there is anybody out there who can help/advise me with a predicament I am struggling to resolve.

We have owned a property in Vale do Milho (VdM) for the past 12 years that has a lot going for it (view, privacy, ambience etc) - it is a typical Jorge de Lagos design and build (1984) - that is not a complaint as it is a well built house that is both comfortable and practical. We bought it to eventually retire to but as it has been primarily built to be a holiday home - it will need a considerable amount of modernisation to transform it from the 169m2 holiday home we have had real enjoyment from to a 250m2 permanent home. It sits in a plot of 2,480m2.

We have had plans drawn and submitted to the Camara by a reputable firm of architects which have all been approved and licences granted. When we started out on the process we were quite specific about the amount of money we had available to spend as well as the date we were going to move. At a meeting with the architect a few weeks ago when I questioned him on the anticipated cost of the project - the figure increased 39%. He also told me that completion would be 12-18 months (yes, I know the score) I quickly reminded him of the budget figure as well as the target date (all parties had agreed to, in writing at the outset) and made it clear that his 'new' figure and timing are not acceptable.

As a major part of the project is to construct an upper floor - he (architect) attributes a large part of the cost and time to doing that. I have asked him drop the upper floor from the project which should reduce the cost and time significantly (his words). In recent days he has told me that in conversation with the builder he now believes the entire project (up and down) can be completed within the budgetted figure but plus IVA. The total indicated price is still beyond our budget and means - especially given a builder's ability to add more cost as they go along.

My predicament is this - I have developed a distrust of this guy based on his moving price 'goalpost'. We have decided that having the ground floor only is no great hardship and do not want the upper floor now - but he is doing his utmost to get us to stick with it (no prizes for guessing why). I suspect the next 'surprise' is going to be a suggestion for redrawing the plans and re-submitting them to the Camara at a not insignificant cost.

My question is this - is it possible to start a project and mid-way through go back to the Camara and advise them that we have changed our minds and do not want the upper floor but staying with the design they have approved for the ground floor?

On a similar note - does anybody know of a competent Project Manager to oversee such a project and what is the going rate for such a person

[EMM]

I believe that any significant change to your " approved " plan will require a full re submission of your project as your license is for the design you submitted.

As to costs , all raw materials , steel. aluminium & plastics are rising in price significantly at the moment and it would be almost impossible to get a fixed price without the builder adding in a significant contingency ( margin ).

We included a 20% contingency in our budget and just about came within it ( excl kitchen , landscaping/garden ).

[Globetrotter]

We have done the exact same thing you are describing. PM us if you want to hear more about our timing and costs.

[pickwick]

I thihk the first thing you need to consider is what exactly has been agreed! It is "normal" for builders and architects to behave in this way but if you have an agreement on price and timetable MAKE THEM HONOUR IT. See the interesting debate on the forum re the price of painting a villa and you will get the message that they will all try it on if they think they can get away with it.

We just completed our pool on time and on budget to the last cent and were swimming in the pool on the day it was agreed it would be complete at the start of the project.

Pickwick

[shanagarry]

Hi Pickwick

I have contributed to the deabte on painting - I am the person who brought a team of Polish workers from Ireland who carried out a first class painting our villa at a third of the cost of local tradesmen and I am in conversation with them to do the same for our refurbishment project.

I will post the result.

[pickwick]

Hi

See PM. I do not think that you or anyone else for that matter should have to compromise on your retirement plans just to line greedy builders pockets!!

Pickwick

[EMM]

There is a big difference between an estimate and a formal written agreement and between painting the outside of your villa and a full refurb that will require a registered builder plus numerous licences and certificates.

There is a huge amount of info on this subject on another expat forum, well worth checking out if you want to avoid problems.

Unfortunately past members of this forum who had a wealth of knowledge and experience for whatever the reason no longer contribute.
In Portugal as many well tell you cutting corners can work out to be very expensive in the long run.

[pickwick]

Cutting corners?? Difference between an estimate and a written agreement? Shanagarry states he has a written agreement!! A deal is a deal no matter the Country. Stick up for yourself Shanagarry and do not listen to those that condone charging estrangeiros as much as they can get away with. There is no difference between an agreement to paint a villa, change a washer or whatever - if a price is offered and you accept then that is the price. End of.

Pickwick

[shanagarry]

This is a topic that will always provoke a degree of controversy and I am old and experienced enough in the ways of the world to realise that people sometimes hear what they want to hear. In this case I have been dealing with a person for whom English is not his 'mother tongue' and who clearly had/has his own agenda. He is not Portuguese.

I did supply a budget at the outset and made it perfectly clear that there was no chance of that being increased. I am aware of the tendency to 'cost-creep' that many experience at the hands of many builders - contingency or not. I set out my requirements very clearly and succinctly. As time went by it became clear to me that face-to-face meetings achieved more than e-mails. Everytime I sent an e-mail the reply I received was completely at odds with the points I had set out. That caused me concern but was eclipsed when we secured both the planning approval and licences within 8 weeks of submitting the project to the Camara - so not all was in vain.

Over the past 3-4 years I have read the many posts (good and bad) on both this site and others to know that this entire process is a minefield - so was carerful to map out my requirements in minute detail to avoid falling foul of the 'cowboys'. As I stand at the moment I am not exposed to any wrong doing - other than a project that if it was constructed would cost us €245,000 more than I budgeted - which will not happen.

Clearly the lack of building work is playing its part - in the last 7 days the price has come down €142,000 - which is not enough but is promising - however, I have grave reservations that I am on a shortlist to become a victim of the 'estrangeiros' syndrome

Thanks to this site I have received a number of very encouraging contacts and advice - that I intend to follow up when I get back to Carvoeiro on August 18th.

[widge]

Get yourself a Portuguese architect or project manager p.d.q.

If you don't have a lot of experience in bulding projects and you don't speak the language it will probably end in tears.

[shanagarry]

Widge,

Thank you for your wise words.

I have experience of several UK building projects and do understand that the Portuguese way of doing things is very different. I have several Project Manager names (Portuguese, Dutch & British) to contact now and will be doing so from August 18th onwards.

If anybody would like to suggest somebody please pm me with their details.

[EMM]

I am beginning to think that we were fortunate with our build.

Once we got past all the paperwork construction started on the day.

Our final contract price even though it had gone up since the original quote ( 18 months prior ) was within reason . ( i had some knowledge of raw material cost increases ).

We had a full spec. brand names etc and even though we are very regular visitors we were kept up to date with developments.email photos etc.

Apart from an inital payment of 20% no other payments were made until the Bank surveyor approved that stage.

Maybe the price we paid for some of the extras was higher than we could have scourced things for ourselves but again the final extras bill was within our budget.( we have far too many electrcal sockets and light fittings ) which the builder and electrician said we would not need ( forgot we would not be in the gloomy UK )

We did have to pay for unexpected ground work ( rock removal ) and we should have insisted on the underground cable connection as part of the initial spec.

The final completion was later than planned but down as much to us as the builder.

A project manager etc would have been an unnecessary cost and complication.

As an aside our builder always maintains that it costs always as much to bring an "old Villa" up to todays spec as it does to build a new one.
( excluding the cost of the plot ). Because we thought about that as well..

If we approach any discussions/negotiations convinced that we are being ripped off then inevitably we will be.

[shanagarry]

I wonder if anybody has come across this situation.

Following my post last week I received a number of really helpful suggestions and have arranged to meet with some of those kind people after I get back to Carvoeiro next week. Just to recap - my architect is telling me that it is necessary for the existing house to be demolished and a new one constructed to comply with a new law. The house is 25 years old and in perfect condition but needs some modernisation to make it a permanent home.It is certainly not in need of demolition.

Based on some of the information I received I composed an e-mail to my architect setting out some of my new found knowledge - especially asking for clarification as to the requirement to have the existing property demolished and explaining that a number of properties in Vale do Milho (VdM) have recently had the work we are planning (extending and putting in a first floor) without the need for demolition.

He has replied with the following "The reason is that the quality used in the past is not acceptable anymore (B15 is now B25).Even many builders are not updated!"

Is this bull@€£& or fact and if it is fact does it mean that all refurbishment projects require the original/existing property to be demolished? I believe I know the answer, given my previous comment and the many projects I have seen in VdM - or is this a new way to stimulate the beleaguered Algarvean building industry

[EMM]

It is likely that your architect is suggesting that you would have to comply with new thermal regulations which that older builds of course do not, but there must be ways of improving the insulation of the existing structure without demolition.

Modern doors and windows. adding insulation panels internally , (high density plaster board ).

Lift existing tiled floors, lay a new insulating membrane ( optional underfloor heating ) and re tile.
Which you are probably considering anyway.
As others have suggested taking independent advice makes a lot of sense.
Have you thought about going to Lagoa Camara with your plans/ permits and asking them what you can or cannot do ?

[shanagarry]

EMM

All the items you have outlined are on the list of things to be done and would have been done if the existing property was demolished. If it is not demolished does it mean that existing walls have to be insulated and plaster boarded. The floor is to be replaced anyway with underfloor heating installed.

I am meeting with people next week to get their opinions/suggestions as to what I could do. Once I have those - good or otherwise I intend going to the Camara to ask the questions.

Thank you for your valuable input.