more on tourist property licences

[tbbr]

When discussing plans for our villa the builder was of the opinion that if we went for gas cooking etc we would not be able to rent as a liscence would not be granted.

Remember many years ago the algarve and other winter sun destinations had problems with a deaths caused by poorly ventilated gas water heating systems,

[rogerjhardy]

Last year I bought a small guest house (5 rooms) and am now advised that the rooms need to be licensed. OK, the requirements seemed to be straight-forward;a floor plan, an area plan, an inspection and a license. Pay the fee. The trouble is that as the building was put up 20 years ago before the law, the staircases are too narrow for stretcher or disabled access and some of the rooms have been modified away from the original floorplan. So, not all the rooms can be licensed, but some can.

Enter the professionals; new drawings necessary....it has to be the architect...oh, dear, long dead.....illegal modifications done years ago...tut, tut....the same laws applied to old buildings as applied to a modern one...the same law applied to a tiny business as a 5 star hotel.....no one at the camera seems to know any facts , how to implement the law, who to see, what to do. With each problem, the cost potentially increases, and we all know the perils of dealing with Portuguese professionals: 'give me your money and I'll call you from Bermuda.' In short it seems to be a badly thought out, badly resourced, premature piece of legislation which will only result in closing businesses and making people redundant.

When the law is an ass, people revolt or ignore it. If the law is not enforced it falls into disrepute. My questions are: Has anyone with a really small business got one of these licenses yet? What is your experience of dealing with the Camera? Is the law being ignored? How many people have the Camera got to carry out enforcement? How many businesses have they got to inspect? Is there any real prospect that this will ever really be fully enforced? Finally, is there any alternative...a bed-and-breakfast license, for example?

[shanagarry]

I received the following unsolicited e-mail this afternoon from an organisation I have never heard of - the impression I get from this is 'What's all the fuss about' it is a simple process.

I don't suppose for one minute it is simple or straightforward but these Jim'll fix it merchants claiming they know the way through will catch some unwitting soul with their simplistic suggestions and approach and what then?

Be warned (unless of course they can do it legally and at an acceptable price)



In 2002 the Portuguese government published the DL (decree law) nº55 regulating the property rental market. This is an all encompassing regulation dealing with developments, and their required infra-structures as well as with individual dwellings that their private owners are renting out during the summer season.



As usual in Portugal the implementation of the law took some time and started with the big issues, in this case new developments, slowly filtering down to the individual cases.



Rental properties are now expected to be brought in line with the DL55/2002, which essentially means obtaining from the Ministry of Tourism, through the Town Hall, the required rental license.



To become legal is simple, but it requires the involvement of a central body that coordinates the work of an engineer, a lawyer or solicitor, and probably a handy man or builder.



This needs to be done in a streamlined fashion in order to be cost effective.



We have developed a programme to obtain this license as efficiently as possible. Contact us and we will e-mail you a leaflet giving you all the details,



Do not delay ………..it is important to you!



Yours sincerely



Jacques J. Callebaut

Managing Director

[martin]

simply stated but methinks not a simple job at all

[rogerjhardy]

simply stated but methinks not a simple job at all

I think I understand the process, simple on the face of it, but of course when you actually try to do it, unbelievably difficult. Madre Dios. But my questions are:


1. Can the law actually be enforced for the thousands of individual villas, apartments and guest houses?

2. Is there a simpler alternative to avoid the necessity to deal with Portuguese Professionals (In my experience lazy, expensive and incompetent)?

Regards
Roger

[e-richard]

1. Can the law actually be enforced for the thousands of individual villas, apartments and guest houses?

Never mind about the other 79,999 villa owners. Can the law actually be enforced for YOU ?

I suspect the answer is yes

Sorry, I just don't know the answer to your other question, if indeed it was a question rather than just a comment about the Portuguese beauracrats

[rogerjhardy]

Sorry, I just don't know the answer to your other question, if indeed it was a question rather than just a comment about the Portuguese beauracrats [/quote]

The second question was not meant to be rhetorical! The comments about the professionals are just my usual side-swipe against incompetents; I am sure there are some good ones out there.....

I had heard that there was a Bed and Breakfast license as well, but know nothing about it; I have a guest house, so this might be more appropriate.

[Pabbers]

Contact us and we will e-mail you a leaflet giving you all the details,

Call me suspicious but I wonder if the email is to try to unearth those who haven't got licences and then pounce!!??

[e-richard]

Yes, can see why you think that Pabbers. I also got the email; I suspect it went to all owners who advertise on CVO.COM as it came from the automated click in the rental adverts.

On the one hand, because they give a phone number and fax, I suspect its legit, but on the other hand the email address is just a netvisao.pt address and not a company name, so I wonder what fly-by-night outfit they may be.

To all owners: expect many more such solicitations including invitations from "architects", "gas inspectors", "Fire prevention officers" and a whole gamut of ambulance chasers

[steveh]

I'm really interested in all the stuff about the licences as friends of ours near Almancil have just been notified they're going to be fined but no idea when or by how much. Has anyone actually received a fine yet?
They've heard they'll need a smoke detector in every room - not a bad thing, except batteries won't do - they have to be hard wired and all connected to a mains one at the front door, so you'd have wires everywhere. They have to have a red light (!) outside every room as well as panic buttons and emergency lights to show the way to fire exits (if you have one - and if you haven't I presume you'd have to have one somehow, although in most places there's so much marble etc. I'm not sure how a fire could even get going) and some places will need fire doors. I think it gets worse if you have a pool. I know this is all safety, but it seems the govmnt is putting hotel type regs onto private houses.
I wonder if the Portuguese have thought about the impact on tourism and employment if people don't do it, or on the property market if lots of people have to sell up.
Anyone know any more?

[martin]

all this sounds normal...fines and licences and regulations...an everyday story of portuguese life

I wonder if all the camara buildings are so well protected..after all whats good for the goose is ...well you know the rest.

[steveh]

I've also heard that if anyone actually manages to get a licence, they'd then be breaking the law if they used their property for themsleves as they'd be registered for commercial use only and the govmnt. doesn't have a facility for 2 types of licensing - ie a mixture of private use and renting to tourists. Also it seems that one apartment in a block or development can't get the licence anyway without the approval of everyone in it - almost impossible, I'd say. In addition, I understand some areas of the Algarve specifically forbid private dwellings to be used for 'commercial activity' so if the local camara issue licences to places in such areas, they'd be breaking their own laws! What a dog's dinner!!

One question - I've read that people need one only they rent for more than 12 weeks a year. Does anyone know if there's any truth in this?

[e-richard]

Where do you get all your info Steve ? It all sounds kind of plausible but not very authoratative. Dare you reveal your source

By the way, semi-related (I think !!!):

While shopping in Makro this morning I was asked to produce my Fiscal Number at checkout. Now what is that all about ? I know Makro is typically used by commercial organizations, but hell we were only stocking up for our own use.... well, and a few friends....

[steveh]

I'm certainly not an authority - wish I was then I'd know how to get this mess sorted! We've got friends with a place in Almancil who are in the thick of it at the moment. There's also a lengthy article on the eurofinesco website - it's free to register to have a look but I'm not 100% sure even they know exactly what the rules are. Seems every local camara is different and I think what we need is some consistency.

[Blacky]

Hi all,just wondering if anyone knows if new build apartment complexes will be inspected for tourist licences alongside the habitation ones prior to final deeds completion.I am awaiting completion due next year and want to rent out asap.The promissory contract does mention that the use of the complex will be for residential,tourism and leisure etc,but my Portuguese lawyer is not answering my emails on the subject,which I gather is not unusual!.Thanks.