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Where are the buyers going to come from?
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
House Buyers
I am grateful to all of you who contributed to this topic with some very logical common sense answers and observations - thank you.
I was going to leave it there - that was until I watched 'Tonight with Trevor McDonald' on ITV last night. For those who missed it they featured life in one of the Spanish Costas and painted a dreadful picture of the way expats are having to exist in the face of a massive criminal assault.
This was not pretty stuff - one middle aged chap lost his Wife after she was the victim of a mugging. According to those interviewed - mugging is a way of life. This was not in some wilderness out in the country - it was in the middle of brand new expensive urbanisations somewhere near Alicante.
I am not sure if the intention was to reassure those who were there or warn-off anybody thinking of going there - but either way nobody in their right mind would go within a million miles of the place.
The interview with the 'respectable' estate agent with his 2 German Shepherd dogs and his 6' high cast iron gates must have sent shivers down the spine of anybody misfortunate enough to be trying to sell and get out or similarly waiting to complete a purchase.
This brought to mind the current developments being erected all along The Algarve and it is not difficult to see why any sensible person would want to exchange their miserable existence in Spain for the comparatively peaceful idyll of Portugal.
I am not naive enough to suggest/believe that Portugal is all Sun, Sea and Sand - but it must certainly have greater appeal for those beleagured souls whose lives have been transformed into complete horror. The Spanish Police appear to have no interest in protecting the non-Spanish community. A cynical friend of mine commented 'it serves them right for going there in the first place' followed by a litany of defamatory expletives about Spain and its populus.
One of the replies to this topic suggested that some of the new buyers of the properties being built all around us would come from those disillusioned with Spain. On the evidence of last night's revelations - there will be a mass exodus. The only frightening part of that is the possibility of the criminal fraternity following them.
I was going to leave it there - that was until I watched 'Tonight with Trevor McDonald' on ITV last night. For those who missed it they featured life in one of the Spanish Costas and painted a dreadful picture of the way expats are having to exist in the face of a massive criminal assault.
This was not pretty stuff - one middle aged chap lost his Wife after she was the victim of a mugging. According to those interviewed - mugging is a way of life. This was not in some wilderness out in the country - it was in the middle of brand new expensive urbanisations somewhere near Alicante.
I am not sure if the intention was to reassure those who were there or warn-off anybody thinking of going there - but either way nobody in their right mind would go within a million miles of the place.
The interview with the 'respectable' estate agent with his 2 German Shepherd dogs and his 6' high cast iron gates must have sent shivers down the spine of anybody misfortunate enough to be trying to sell and get out or similarly waiting to complete a purchase.
This brought to mind the current developments being erected all along The Algarve and it is not difficult to see why any sensible person would want to exchange their miserable existence in Spain for the comparatively peaceful idyll of Portugal.
I am not naive enough to suggest/believe that Portugal is all Sun, Sea and Sand - but it must certainly have greater appeal for those beleagured souls whose lives have been transformed into complete horror. The Spanish Police appear to have no interest in protecting the non-Spanish community. A cynical friend of mine commented 'it serves them right for going there in the first place' followed by a litany of defamatory expletives about Spain and its populus.
One of the replies to this topic suggested that some of the new buyers of the properties being built all around us would come from those disillusioned with Spain. On the evidence of last night's revelations - there will be a mass exodus. The only frightening part of that is the possibility of the criminal fraternity following them.
Let's face it, where there are the "haves" and the "have nots" and general social cleavage, there will always be a criminal fraternity. Be it in Spain, Portugal, the UK, Germany or wherever. Unfortunately, it seems to be a fact of life. If the ex-pat communities were more scattered in Spain and Portugal, then probably it wouldn't be so much an issue, as they wouldn't be such a target audience for the criminals. However, whilst Northern Europeans continue to flock down to the Costas and the Algarve, I think it will probably only get worse, unfortunately. 
Jealousy is a HUGE factor and even those that may live simply and don't live in large villas or flaunt any wealth they may have, are still perceived as in some way affluent because they come from Northern Europe and to some locals, seem to be taking over...and are rich pickings...rightly or wrongly.
Not sure what the answer is I am afraid
Jealousy is a HUGE factor and even those that may live simply and don't live in large villas or flaunt any wealth they may have, are still perceived as in some way affluent because they come from Northern Europe and to some locals, seem to be taking over...and are rich pickings...rightly or wrongly.
Not sure what the answer is I am afraid
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Guest
Buyers
There is also the prospect of those bods with Self Invetsment Pensions (SIPS) investing chunks of pension cash in foreign property as fron 6th April 06. However, the rules and tax implications for holding overseas property is more complex than for domestic real estate, but this, coupled with the prospect of interest rates cuts and therefore a weaker pound, may introduce new buyers into the market.
G
G
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
Exodus
Gazza
That is a real and distinct possibility - the rules for overseas property are not really that difficult and do open up the market for all those who are running 'scared' from any pension plan/scheme. With no real 'bale-out' likely from the state - every option will be and has to be explored.
One of the conditions of the new rules is the strict requirement for any property investment not to be the investors residence - that should prevent them being used by the Spanish Exodus. However, with life here in the UK about to undergo a major change following recent events in London, it is likely we will see a great many 'upping-roots' and moving somewhere 'safer'.
Clearly The Algarve, with all its recent positive publicity will be a 'beneficiary' - hopefully not another 'Spain'. The acid test will be the rejection or otherwise of large scale planning applications in areas we were once told, would never be allowed to develop.
Interesting times......
That is a real and distinct possibility - the rules for overseas property are not really that difficult and do open up the market for all those who are running 'scared' from any pension plan/scheme. With no real 'bale-out' likely from the state - every option will be and has to be explored.
One of the conditions of the new rules is the strict requirement for any property investment not to be the investors residence - that should prevent them being used by the Spanish Exodus. However, with life here in the UK about to undergo a major change following recent events in London, it is likely we will see a great many 'upping-roots' and moving somewhere 'safer'.
Clearly The Algarve, with all its recent positive publicity will be a 'beneficiary' - hopefully not another 'Spain'. The acid test will be the rejection or otherwise of large scale planning applications in areas we were once told, would never be allowed to develop.
Interesting times......
I think that the "acid test" has already begun Shanagarry. Recently there have been several people wandering around the countryside surrounding Silves with clipboards. I stopped to chat with one of them, a very nice young woman and she told me that she was making a report on behalf of the President of the Câmara to see if they could take many areas out of ecological status. She said that whilst she thought that the area she was covering that morning was totally unsuitable for large scale building due to the terrain, possible lack of water etc etc and would report that back, it wouldn't be down to her and said of course it will be money that talks in the end.
Bearing in mind the new golf course developments near Silves and the proposed building around that area, I suppose it is only a matter of time before this area, like Carvoeiro, starts being really developed...vamos ver...
There is always the Alentejo if you don't like it I suppose
Bearing in mind the new golf course developments near Silves and the proposed building around that area, I suppose it is only a matter of time before this area, like Carvoeiro, starts being really developed...vamos ver...
There is always the Alentejo if you don't like it I suppose
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
Hi Bruxinha
Thanks - our problem is that we adore Portugal and its people and coming to live there is something we really look forward to. Indoubtedly things will 'progress' and the landscape will change - hopefully the people won't.
You only have to look at the Portimao skyline to see how that place has grown in the last 10 years - Lagoa, Carvoeiro etc will, as sure as night follows day, succumb to the big money.
On a grey and sodden West Sussex morning - Carvoeiro, crowded or not, I know where we would rather be......
Thanks - our problem is that we adore Portugal and its people and coming to live there is something we really look forward to. Indoubtedly things will 'progress' and the landscape will change - hopefully the people won't.
You only have to look at the Portimao skyline to see how that place has grown in the last 10 years - Lagoa, Carvoeiro etc will, as sure as night follows day, succumb to the big money.
On a grey and sodden West Sussex morning - Carvoeiro, crowded or not, I know where we would rather be......
Oh well Shanagarry, you will at least be pleased to know that it is grey and sodden here too this morning. Although, unfortunately it doesn't look like the rain is going to last very long
The grass always looks greener I suppose. I quite miss the green rolling hills of the South Downs in Sussex and am looking forward to my next trip back. I also adore Brighton and many English cities for the buzz, excitement and more liberal attitudes that you don't really get here. However, when I am there I also miss certain things about the south Iberian peninsula. Can't have everything can we?
As for your hope that the people won't change...I think it depends who you are talking about i.e. expats or locals and "progress" does do strange things to people sometimes
The grass always looks greener I suppose. I quite miss the green rolling hills of the South Downs in Sussex and am looking forward to my next trip back. I also adore Brighton and many English cities for the buzz, excitement and more liberal attitudes that you don't really get here. However, when I am there I also miss certain things about the south Iberian peninsula. Can't have everything can we?
As for your hope that the people won't change...I think it depends who you are talking about i.e. expats or locals and "progress" does do strange things to people sometimes
For some time now we could watch Portugal tumble, bumble and stumble into the 21st century. I am not trying to be cynical or make my countrymen look bad - fact is there are elements of the society and political landscape that are exact depictions of Spain 10 years ago.
Although they are two very destinct types of people, there are certain traits that remain the same.
The worst is the "somebody else will take care of it" attitude. Everybody is perfectly capable of discussing the problems and the issues that are making their lives hard, but if you ask them what they have actually done about it, you will get a shrug or a "what can I do about it?"
That way things remain in the hands of people we actually would not trust to get us a doughnut from the local shop - politicians.
You look at the Costa del Sol or take a drive around Malaga and you realize that this is developent gone horribly wrong - who in their right mind would want to go on holiday and breathe worse air than in central Mexico City at 6pm??
With the masses comes the crime - sad but true. Population increase also increases anonymity of those, who want to go about illegal actvities undetected.
So how do you go about preventing it?
Do we shoot all the politicians and go back to a dictatorship where everybody could leave their house unguarded and unlocked without fear of being robbed? Where criminals were subjected to harsh corporal punishment and mediocre imprisonment conditions?
Go back to times when the escudo was one of the most stable currencies in Europe and the state was wealthy enough to ensure the basic needs of the population were met?
No, out of the question - too many downsides to that system. Liberty and freedom of speech are rights nobody is willing to give up anymore, and rightly so.
Alternatives?
I am going to just shrug and assume somebody will think of something.....
Although they are two very destinct types of people, there are certain traits that remain the same.
The worst is the "somebody else will take care of it" attitude. Everybody is perfectly capable of discussing the problems and the issues that are making their lives hard, but if you ask them what they have actually done about it, you will get a shrug or a "what can I do about it?"
That way things remain in the hands of people we actually would not trust to get us a doughnut from the local shop - politicians.
You look at the Costa del Sol or take a drive around Malaga and you realize that this is developent gone horribly wrong - who in their right mind would want to go on holiday and breathe worse air than in central Mexico City at 6pm??
With the masses comes the crime - sad but true. Population increase also increases anonymity of those, who want to go about illegal actvities undetected.
So how do you go about preventing it?
Do we shoot all the politicians and go back to a dictatorship where everybody could leave their house unguarded and unlocked without fear of being robbed? Where criminals were subjected to harsh corporal punishment and mediocre imprisonment conditions?
Go back to times when the escudo was one of the most stable currencies in Europe and the state was wealthy enough to ensure the basic needs of the population were met?
No, out of the question - too many downsides to that system. Liberty and freedom of speech are rights nobody is willing to give up anymore, and rightly so.
Alternatives?
I am going to just shrug and assume somebody will think of something.....
I think you are dead right Gambo about the "somebody else will take care of it" attitude. The word apathy springs to mind. In fact, I used this word once to a Portuguese friend, "apatia" (I believe it is) and he had never heard of it:?
People here don't seem to want to get together and push for things, I don't know why. I am sure if they did, at least some things might change for the better. I suppose too many vested interests in keeping the status quo
People here don't seem to want to get together and push for things, I don't know why. I am sure if they did, at least some things might change for the better. I suppose too many vested interests in keeping the status quo
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shanagarry
- CVO Legend
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:26 pm
- Location: Craigweil-on-Sea
Striking a balance
Interesting points you guys are raising - but have you considered the alternative?
Here in the UK we are undoubtedly going to see a change to way we enjoy our 'freedom' following the recent events in London. It might just be a case of us having to adopt the attitude ' somebody else will take care of it' because they will - Blair/Bush, Brown & Co
At least in Portugal there is not an urgency to 'reinvent matters' and sometimes that is preferable. However, the opposite can be and is probably very frustrating when you are trying to get something done.
Whichever way we look at these situations we are faced with a compromise - accept the inevitable change we in the UK are going to have to get used to or live our lives in a slightly less frentic way (the way we believe you are 'fortunate' enough to do in Portugal).
I accept there is a balance to be struck and on the face of it - I just think you might be in the '£' seats.
Here in the UK we are undoubtedly going to see a change to way we enjoy our 'freedom' following the recent events in London. It might just be a case of us having to adopt the attitude ' somebody else will take care of it' because they will - Blair/Bush, Brown & Co
At least in Portugal there is not an urgency to 'reinvent matters' and sometimes that is preferable. However, the opposite can be and is probably very frustrating when you are trying to get something done.
Whichever way we look at these situations we are faced with a compromise - accept the inevitable change we in the UK are going to have to get used to or live our lives in a slightly less frentic way (the way we believe you are 'fortunate' enough to do in Portugal).
I accept there is a balance to be struck and on the face of it - I just think you might be in the '£' seats.
Morning Shanagarry. Thanks for saying we are at least somewhat interesting 
I think it comes back to what I said a few posts ago, i.e. the grass does always look greener and yes, sometimes we have to make a compromise. I think for those of us, who either live here permanently or spend large chunks of time here, we get frustrated, not just for ourselves but for the Portuguese too. Many of them will complain to you about how things are and how things are going but are not really prepared to do anything about it.
I hadn't considered Digger's view/comment before...I think he is right, a legacy of the fascist days I suppose...
Anyway, only you as an individual, like the rest of us, can decide what is best for you in terms of what you want from life and where you would like to be. I think I will always be a bit of a nomad, experiencing a bit of this and experiencing a bit of that but hey at least it is all an "experience".
I don't think the word "urgency" is a word you really use in Portugal
As for living a less "frentic" life...I personally think the stress is just a different type of stress...Hope Sussex is sunny for you.
I think it comes back to what I said a few posts ago, i.e. the grass does always look greener and yes, sometimes we have to make a compromise. I think for those of us, who either live here permanently or spend large chunks of time here, we get frustrated, not just for ourselves but for the Portuguese too. Many of them will complain to you about how things are and how things are going but are not really prepared to do anything about it.
I hadn't considered Digger's view/comment before...I think he is right, a legacy of the fascist days I suppose...
Anyway, only you as an individual, like the rest of us, can decide what is best for you in terms of what you want from life and where you would like to be. I think I will always be a bit of a nomad, experiencing a bit of this and experiencing a bit of that but hey at least it is all an "experience".
I don't think the word "urgency" is a word you really use in Portugal
As for living a less "frentic" life...I personally think the stress is just a different type of stress...Hope Sussex is sunny for you.