Due Diligence - make sure you do yours

[steve]

Shannagary

I fully endorse what you say. I did not want to come across as too pessimistic but I would otherwise have mentioned that folk I know have been badly ripped off by British people operating out here. It is a mistake to think that nationality is a significant factor in the equation.

[Scarpetta]

Just another thought, you can always ask reputable villa holiday companies who they use. That way you can see who both the villa owners and the rentals companies trust.

Re the "other topic" all I will say is thank you Gambrinus for giving sensible people the chance to talk things through rationally and without the barrage of abuse!

[shanagarry]

Steve

I guess you are more susceptible to being ripped off by 'your own' because they will come across as 'Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Nice person' who speaks English and on the pretext of doing you a favour and of course they wouldn't take advantage

Just in case any English speaking non-Brit with a dishonest streak thinks they are exempt that label - you're not

[shanagarry]

Scarpetta

I don't necessarily go along with your 'logic'. They (villa holiday companies) are the ones who look for the cheapest solutions and won't always take the time to 'dig' for references and then take the time to qualify them. I can remember during the times we rented property, we came across some really dodgy outfits - organisations you would most definitely not choose, knowing what you know after you become an owner.

[pato]

I've Tried to post some usefull info regarding the problems of managers and it's been rejected, it's not slanderous just may be helpfull, if anyone wants the info PM me. Particularly those who've been in dispute.

[shanagarry]

Gambrinus

I had considered sending you a PM - but feel that the issue is so critical that it's best I write to you publicly. As the provider of a public service I believe you are morally obliged to bring to the attention of everybody who entrusts the fabric of their property to a Property Management Company - in a totally unabridged fashion highlight the pitfalls such an arrangement can, if you get it wrong, have on you and your family. I have gone back as far as I could to see if there are any other issues on this forum that have sparked such a 'public interest' and I can't find any - that is the level of the seriousness of this matter.

As you know I was one of the people who PM'd you last week while the Mazza issue was at its height amidst the 'slanging' stage and asked you (as I suspect others did) to stop the thread as it was degenerating into nothing useful. You did that and the matter appeared to go away.

The post earlier today asking about due diligence has reignited the debate - and rightly so as it appears we have rightly identified/exposed the main protagonist. I admire the way you positively dealt with the matter this afternoon in one sense - but in so doing so have stifled the debate on what is a very serious matter. This is not an issue that can be silenced - given the very nature of its execution.

This entire issue revolves around a breach of trust and outright criminal activity - and has to be left out there for the good of the community. I don't know the numbers involved but the amount of people who entrust their property and all it holds to Property Management Companies (PMCs) must be in the 10s of 1000's and while the vast majority of PMC's are decent and honourable companies/people - there are those out there who are not.

This is far more serious than the price of bread at Intermarche, the TV's in bars showing football or the layout of the square - this goes to the core of our investment in a property where in many cases it's our life savings or pension - everything we own. In trusting a PMC with the security of our investment we are placing an enormous trust in that company/person - a trust we are totally dependent on. When we get on a plane and go home we live in the hope that the person we have entrusted our home to is doing what they said they will do - looking after our best interests.

In the event that they breach that trust as is the case with Mazza - I believe that this forum or any other forum for that matter has a duty of care to expose such people to protect the others who have also placed their trust in the offending organisation or to alert everybody else to the potential for disaster if you pick the wrong company. Clearly everything that is said in such a forum - where passions will run high - has to be carefully moderated to avoid libellous and slanderous remarks being made in the heat of the moment - but I honestly believe and request that you leave this matter in the public domain for full and frank exchanges - within the confines of all that is decent and just.

I hope this makes sense?

[sam]

When we bought our holiday home in Carvoeiro we engaged our first agent purely on recommendation of a friend. This worked well for 15 years, and I am still friends with them. When they decided they had too much work, they gave us notice that they would not be able to continue.
I decided this time that I needed ‘due diligence’. I looked at several agents, and did not go for the cheapest. I asked around about the person I was considering, took references, interviewed that person, got their address, had formal invoices with address and fiscal number, paid for as much as I could myself or by direct debit, got the bills forwarded for others, paid one months costs in advance, and topped up only on invoice, etc. However, over a year later, and in 3 months over the winter/Christmas period, during which I had an operation, it all went pear shaped., and the rest was part of the forum history last week.
Yes, due diligence is great, but when you are dealing with property, financial problems can quickly mount, and it will not always safeguard you. I had concerns, bills etc were promised, but not sent. So, I did a spot check and sacked her.
In my case it was a gut instinct that I acted on – there were just too many excuses. I would still recommend due diligence, but don’t rely on it.
I think it is shame that more people of any nationality do not get involved in the forum. I have got so much information, support, and had a lot of laughs and enjoyment from the site. Now I have made new friends, who one day I hope to actually meet.

[shanagarry]

Sam

It is not easy - in the same way as employing people in a business is fraught with difficulty. But like employing staff - setting their goals and measurement criteria is key to keeping them onside. Hopefully you are in that position now and can move on having learned an expensive lesson.

[Michael Crane]

It is all about trust. If we go through life trusting no one we won't get far. Absent villa owners have to have complete trust in the person(s) they leave the care, security and maintenance of their villas to. Finding someone that will not betray that trust must be very difficult. I am not (nor ever likely to be) a villa owner, but I would imagine now that some owners have had their trust betrayed that the task of finding a reliable replacement will be that much harder.

It isn't just the one company that is now under scrutiny but possibly all such companies that work on trust. When one company starts swindling its customers the others can be 'tarred by the same brush' and it can have a knock-on effect. Already several owners have replaced locks at their villas for fear of 'reprisals' and have had friends looking over their properties on a semi-regular basis.

A few months back while sat in a bar with forum friends one asked another, "Where's your villa?" They replied, giving directions and description, only to hear, "I've stayed there a couple of times." "You can't have - I have never rented it out!" It transpired that the management company tasked with the upkeep and security of the private villa had rented it out to the other member twice! And there was probably more that its owner never got to hear about.

Trust is a fragile thing. It can take years to cultivate and seconds to destroy. Yet we can't function without it.

With regard to the the original post, I am pleased that they had not heard of the company that has caused so much misery to some of this forum's members. Perhaps their activities aren't as widespread as they might be. I'd like to think that only four persons were swindled - but I think it unlikely.

[laserblazer]

"Where's your villa?" They replied, giving directions and description, only to hear, "I've stayed there a couple of times." "You can't have - I have never rented it out

There's another forum member who thinks this may be happening to them.

[shanagarry]

Michael

It is regrettable that many hard working and decent property management companies will be 'tarred' with the same brush because of this. I believe they should look on it as an opportunity as opposed to anything else. They should compile a 'Due Diligence' booklet to help prospective, as well as existing clients check them out by listing all their clients and providing brief contact details. This checking process should not be a one-off exercise - I do it twice a year. It is inevitable that there will be some clients who will not be overly enthusiastic with the performance of their management company - so the regular publication of a helpful booklet or similar could provide them with a wake up call. It is for that reason that I mentioned in yesterday's post that regular reviews with your PMC is a must. If they don't like you asking awkward questions about them - run a mile.

Any PMC following this will undoubtedly counter it by saying that many clients do not adhere to the spirit of their agreements. Our property manager has to send frequent notes to clients chasing payments and is all too often left to fund large payments. I have often advised her to terminate such arrangements as they could bring her business down. Some she does.

It's a double edged sword but true partnerships are built on trust developed over time. The decision to give a total stranger the 'run' of your home is not one to be taken lightly and has to be considered and comprehensively scrutinised in the same way as you would when choosing a friend.

[shanagarry]

Here's a suggestion for the laserblazer issue;

Could some the residents living in different areas of Cvo offer to provide voluntary feedback by way of an e-mail to other forum members an 'active/inactive' status report on their property by just driving by - as a gesture of good neighbourliness. It couldn't be paid for as that would carry a liability - but it's a double check.

[Gambrinus]

Good morning all.

Shanagarry, I am not entirely sure what warranted your response, but I assure you that I have made no further intervention in this particular topic since yesterday afternoon when I banned the report spammer.

Steen is watching over the content of this particular section, any content queries or remarks you have should be sent to him.

[sam]

One form of due diligence is to check someone’s financial history. I have recently been given my ex-agents address in the UK (sold Dec 2009) and used this information to pay £8 and do an on-line search under UK Court Orders and Judgements for this person. Had I been in a position to do this prior to employing her, then I would not have employed her.

[Scarpetta]

shanagarry,

I understand what you are saying and in some cases that may well be true, however I can think of at least 4 rental companies who do not actually employ the managment companies and so therefore have no vested interest in promoting one over another.
With this in mind all I was trying to say was that where you have an independant rental company with more than say 20 villas it might be useful to see how many of their owners are looked after by the same company.
I have travelled out to CVO many times over the past 30 years and have come across villa mangers both good and not so good.
I was merely trying to make a suggestion of an additional method of getting information it was not supposed to be the only method.