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The best thiefs in the world....
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Michael Crane
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Gambrinus asked: So who is ready to admit, that (s)he wouldnt mind bruising one or two of those thieving little gits rather than watching them get away with it again and again?
Me! I'd willing beat the crap out of the bar-stewards that broke into our hire car and stole our belogings. Too many 'do-gooders' have ensured that that such (effective) rough justice is no more. Pity.
Me! I'd willing beat the crap out of the bar-stewards that broke into our hire car and stole our belogings. Too many 'do-gooders' have ensured that that such (effective) rough justice is no more. Pity.
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Ellie
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Im with you on this one Mads...but....Found myself in a circumstance with a young male driver ....having an argument over parking ..and I found myself on the verge of 'landing him one'...I was shocked how violent I felt towards him....how would I have reacted if hed been stealing from my car..is what I have to ask myself 
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eco/spider
Maddi,
I had explained about a former Lagoa police chief and his methods. In no way did this imply that we were living under a totalitarian regime or mean that the general public was subjected to police brutality.
It simply meant that you didnt have to lock doors back then.
The problems you are talking about, are all derived from western intervention into systems that are different
It seems democracy does not permit such methods simply because of the moral implcations that come with it.
Why is it, that once a country becomes democratic, it has to abide by rules and morals that everbody else finds correct? Imposing these rules and morals is what causes conflicts between modern and emerging countries.
Example:
Do you really think a country like China can be ruled by known forms of democracy? We would like them to respect human rights, but few really stop to wonder what would happen if a couple million chinese suddely run out of control because they are no longer subject to these forms of control. - for one, europe would probably not have enough bullets to stop them.
(I think if China were smaller with less population and had some interesting natural resources, the USA would probably have used the human rights violations as a reason to invade)...
Returning to your exemplification (and Chile is a good point to latch on to):
Most south american countries are in the state they are in because western powers expanded their sphere of influence into these countries for economic or strategic reasons. In Chile (and most other SA countries) it was US intervention that tipped the scales in the first place.
Back to Portugal:
Granted, Portugal would not be were it is if it werent for democracy and subsequent benefits. The downside is clearly the inability to handle interior affairs without everybody having an opinion and ultimatly disabling perfectly acceptable methods of control for sake of moral implications.
Texans execute people and you are having a go at me for endorsing a couple of bruises for people who dont follow the rules?
I had explained about a former Lagoa police chief and his methods. In no way did this imply that we were living under a totalitarian regime or mean that the general public was subjected to police brutality.
It simply meant that you didnt have to lock doors back then.
The problems you are talking about, are all derived from western intervention into systems that are different
It seems democracy does not permit such methods simply because of the moral implcations that come with it.
Why is it, that once a country becomes democratic, it has to abide by rules and morals that everbody else finds correct? Imposing these rules and morals is what causes conflicts between modern and emerging countries.
Example:
Do you really think a country like China can be ruled by known forms of democracy? We would like them to respect human rights, but few really stop to wonder what would happen if a couple million chinese suddely run out of control because they are no longer subject to these forms of control. - for one, europe would probably not have enough bullets to stop them.
(I think if China were smaller with less population and had some interesting natural resources, the USA would probably have used the human rights violations as a reason to invade)...
Returning to your exemplification (and Chile is a good point to latch on to):
Most south american countries are in the state they are in because western powers expanded their sphere of influence into these countries for economic or strategic reasons. In Chile (and most other SA countries) it was US intervention that tipped the scales in the first place.
Back to Portugal:
Granted, Portugal would not be were it is if it werent for democracy and subsequent benefits. The downside is clearly the inability to handle interior affairs without everybody having an opinion and ultimatly disabling perfectly acceptable methods of control for sake of moral implications.
Texans execute people and you are having a go at me for endorsing a couple of bruises for people who dont follow the rules?
I have no time for executions either - I don't notice Texas having any less of a crime problem than anywhere else.
I couldn't live in Texas anymore than I could live in Chile for example, I would not expose myself or my family to any 'rough justice' regime - just look at how many times somebody got it wrong.
Likewise I wouldn't want to live anywhere where guns are commonplace, I will not expose my children to the possibility of getting their heads shot off because they climbed into someone's yard to get their ball back!!
Thats my view, plain and simple and I have yet to hear a compulsive argument to counter it and yet I remain open because that is who I am.
Maddi
I couldn't live in Texas anymore than I could live in Chile for example, I would not expose myself or my family to any 'rough justice' regime - just look at how many times somebody got it wrong.
Likewise I wouldn't want to live anywhere where guns are commonplace, I will not expose my children to the possibility of getting their heads shot off because they climbed into someone's yard to get their ball back!!
Thats my view, plain and simple and I have yet to hear a compulsive argument to counter it and yet I remain open because that is who I am.
Maddi
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Michael Crane
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No Maddi, no research or anything to back up my claim - just an opinion.
I know you work with offenders (it is you, isn't it?) and see things I don't, but, I have also worked with offenders (and the criminally insane) and I know from experience that kid glove treatment towards them is seen as getting away with it.
When I worked with the younger ones they were quite candid with me about what they'd done and why. A lot of the time it came down to parental control - none - and a complete lack of respect for other people and their possessions.
I am convinced that had they been harshly dealt with at the outset with the birch or similar, a good many of them would have thought long and hard about a lifestyle change.
Would I mind living in a state such as you suggest? No, but there are ways to make where we do live safer:
I appreciate these comments aren't shared by everyone - but 'round where I live, and within a lot of my friends, they are.
And, before you start your reply, I came from a council estate in Lincoln where the police feared to tread (even in pairs) and where crime - both against property and person - were acceptable within the community. A lot of my peers from my early years have been or still are in prison; and almost all of them have criminal records. I do not.
Why don't I? Because despite the environment we (four kids, me the eldest) grew up in our parents engendered in us the concept of right and wrong. Yes, we got the occasional clout when we did wrong, and we knew it was coming! Mum and dad always taught us to respect our elders and to be polite and well mannered. This was bloody hard to do where I lived, I can tell you. Bullying and beatings were commonplace for us.
I survived. I still live very near to the same estate (and its reputation as 'hard' is still applicable). It won't change because the people there are breeding more of the same. I was lucky, I escaped and made something of myself - many didn't.
We don't need the Taliban, or Pinochet, or a Police State. All we need is a return to family values, respect for each other and the will and determination to live together in harmony.
It can be done.
I know you work with offenders (it is you, isn't it?) and see things I don't, but, I have also worked with offenders (and the criminally insane) and I know from experience that kid glove treatment towards them is seen as getting away with it.
When I worked with the younger ones they were quite candid with me about what they'd done and why. A lot of the time it came down to parental control - none - and a complete lack of respect for other people and their possessions.
I am convinced that had they been harshly dealt with at the outset with the birch or similar, a good many of them would have thought long and hard about a lifestyle change.
Would I mind living in a state such as you suggest? No, but there are ways to make where we do live safer:
- Take off the kid gloves and get stuck in! Stop treating the perpertrators of crime as victims and funnel it towards their victims.
Build more prisons and put those within society that cannot behave and are a constant trouble to others inside them.
Make it compulsory to carry an ID card.
Make it compulsory for everyone (starting with the male population) to be fingerprinted and DNA'd.
Kick the Magistrates up the arse and into the real world - too often do they live in a world that has never come into personal contact with the yobs they frequently face (and who perceive them as soft).
I appreciate these comments aren't shared by everyone - but 'round where I live, and within a lot of my friends, they are.
And, before you start your reply, I came from a council estate in Lincoln where the police feared to tread (even in pairs) and where crime - both against property and person - were acceptable within the community. A lot of my peers from my early years have been or still are in prison; and almost all of them have criminal records. I do not.
Why don't I? Because despite the environment we (four kids, me the eldest) grew up in our parents engendered in us the concept of right and wrong. Yes, we got the occasional clout when we did wrong, and we knew it was coming! Mum and dad always taught us to respect our elders and to be polite and well mannered. This was bloody hard to do where I lived, I can tell you. Bullying and beatings were commonplace for us.
I survived. I still live very near to the same estate (and its reputation as 'hard' is still applicable). It won't change because the people there are breeding more of the same. I was lucky, I escaped and made something of myself - many didn't.
We don't need the Taliban, or Pinochet, or a Police State. All we need is a return to family values, respect for each other and the will and determination to live together in harmony.
It can be done.
I would like to see “those thieving little gits” and also those graffiti artists doing community service. How about 1000 hours with a scrubbing brush for a first offence?
But at the same time I think it’s important to understand why the police in Portugal are so, er, reluctant to enforce the law.
Gambrinus wrote, “A few decades ago Lagoa had a police chief who was renouned for his ruthelessness. If he caught a criminal, he would take him to the "state line" near Armação, beat the living c**p out of him and tell him that if he ever crossed the line into Lagoa again he would be after him like the devil after the poor soul”
A few decades ago, ie in the days of the fascist police state when not only criminals but most of the country lived in fear. We don’t want to be reminded of those days, and the police know it.
“Nowadays you would have civil rights groups screaming in dismay....” I thought this was an English disease.
But at the same time I think it’s important to understand why the police in Portugal are so, er, reluctant to enforce the law.
Gambrinus wrote, “A few decades ago Lagoa had a police chief who was renouned for his ruthelessness. If he caught a criminal, he would take him to the "state line" near Armação, beat the living c**p out of him and tell him that if he ever crossed the line into Lagoa again he would be after him like the devil after the poor soul”
A few decades ago, ie in the days of the fascist police state when not only criminals but most of the country lived in fear. We don’t want to be reminded of those days, and the police know it.
“Nowadays you would have civil rights groups screaming in dismay....” I thought this was an English disease.
MC you did all right because you were taught those values and in fact you have provided some anecdotal evidence of why others have done time.
"What Works" (Andrew Underdown "Evidence Based Practice")in a modern criminal justice system, is just that . . . it is about changing values and attitudes.
If you beat the c**p out of someone, all you teach them is that violence is how to get things done, and perhaps that might stop the thieving little git from stealing from you again - great, but then when someone upsets him, he will have learnt that you give a beating for that.
Digger and Ellie both make pertinent points, other people's lack of respect for the laws by which we try to abide makes us angry and resentful and feel like giving someone a hefty whack, but the difference between US and THEM is that we don't
Indeed schemes that provide redress like Community Punishment, and offending behaviour programmes which challenge values and attitudes are "What Works" (Credit Andrew Underdown)
Maddi
"What Works" (Andrew Underdown "Evidence Based Practice")in a modern criminal justice system, is just that . . . it is about changing values and attitudes.
If you beat the c**p out of someone, all you teach them is that violence is how to get things done, and perhaps that might stop the thieving little git from stealing from you again - great, but then when someone upsets him, he will have learnt that you give a beating for that.
Digger and Ellie both make pertinent points, other people's lack of respect for the laws by which we try to abide makes us angry and resentful and feel like giving someone a hefty whack, but the difference between US and THEM is that we don't
Indeed schemes that provide redress like Community Punishment, and offending behaviour programmes which challenge values and attitudes are "What Works" (Credit Andrew Underdown)
Maddi
The police chief worked his turf well into the 80s, a time when the transition between old regime and new democracy often brought up conflicts just like these. Frequently you would hear older portuguese say, that it was so much better during the times of Salazar, you could sleep with open windows and unlocked doors. Granted, most of these people had very little cultural and scholar education and could not judge the methods applied to obtain this security.
The police chief's main advantage was a subject Michael elaborated on, anonymity, or lack of it. Lagoa was a village and he knew exactly who stepped out of line and where to look for him. If it was outsiders, it was even easier. Nowadays you would have to resort to DNA and fingerprints to gain an overview of the situation.
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I would like to increase the scale of crime and violence and mention the chaos days in Hamburg, where every year thousands of hooligans march through the streets leaving a trail of destruction. German poilce limit themselves to arresting a few hundred. In most cases they have to be let go due to lack of evidence. If they resort to violence of any sort, they can count on charges against themselves.
At the same time, the portuguese policia choque secure the area around the stadium where Metallica have just finished their concert. Thousands of violent & drugged youngsters pour onto the street to find a column of 2 by 2 policia choque all the way through a shopping street to the train station. Not a single shop window broke that night.
Why?
Everyone there knew, that the policia choque have very long and very painfull whacking sticks and they are not afraid to use them.
So the people they had used these against in the past may not have benefitted from that treatemnt, but it definitely served its purpose in preventing future incidents.
The police chief's main advantage was a subject Michael elaborated on, anonymity, or lack of it. Lagoa was a village and he knew exactly who stepped out of line and where to look for him. If it was outsiders, it was even easier. Nowadays you would have to resort to DNA and fingerprints to gain an overview of the situation.
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I would like to increase the scale of crime and violence and mention the chaos days in Hamburg, where every year thousands of hooligans march through the streets leaving a trail of destruction. German poilce limit themselves to arresting a few hundred. In most cases they have to be let go due to lack of evidence. If they resort to violence of any sort, they can count on charges against themselves.
At the same time, the portuguese policia choque secure the area around the stadium where Metallica have just finished their concert. Thousands of violent & drugged youngsters pour onto the street to find a column of 2 by 2 policia choque all the way through a shopping street to the train station. Not a single shop window broke that night.
Why?
Everyone there knew, that the policia choque have very long and very painfull whacking sticks and they are not afraid to use them.
So the people they had used these against in the past may not have benefitted from that treatemnt, but it definitely served its purpose in preventing future incidents.
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Ellie
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G !
Those 'whacking sticks 'sound formidable!
But I think a strong police presence is essential( a necessary evil?) for prevention of all crime.
When we lived in Lagoa,it did take me some time to get used to seeing 'armed policemen' walking around,after just being used to the British Bobby. But after a time,soon got used to it and actually felt 'protected'.
There is a lot of argument(both for & against) ordinary citizens 'having a go back!'
It something makes you angry enough..then quite naturally you will 'let loose'!
Maybe we should show our anger more then these perpetrators of crime will think twice?
Those 'whacking sticks 'sound formidable!
But I think a strong police presence is essential( a necessary evil?) for prevention of all crime.
When we lived in Lagoa,it did take me some time to get used to seeing 'armed policemen' walking around,after just being used to the British Bobby. But after a time,soon got used to it and actually felt 'protected'.
There is a lot of argument(both for & against) ordinary citizens 'having a go back!'
It something makes you angry enough..then quite naturally you will 'let loose'!
Maybe we should show our anger more then these perpetrators of crime will think twice?
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pinkiebluesky
- CVO Senior
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I remember "Guerreiro as he was (and still is) called. He scared the S**T out of us and if he was ever around we were ALL very careful of what we did. Now I am older and wiser ( 
) I realise that he ran the ideal police station and nobody could do ANYTHING without having him breathing down their necks!! Wish we had someone like him now!! You are all very critical of our police force, but believe me they do work hard and do catch the criminals most of the time. This is an old topic, but it is a fact thet most crime here is seasonal, just like the tourists. There are a lot of petty thieves that come down from Lisbon, etc just for the season, shame but it's true.
) I realise that he ran the ideal police station and nobody could do ANYTHING without having him breathing down their necks!! Wish we had someone like him now!! You are all very critical of our police force, but believe me they do work hard and do catch the criminals most of the time. This is an old topic, but it is a fact thet most crime here is seasonal, just like the tourists. There are a lot of petty thieves that come down from Lisbon, etc just for the season, shame but it's true.
All of these problems and crimes that have been mentioned above will not go away under police oppression and violence. Maybe the crime rate would fall, many "criminals" who break the law for a kick maybe less inclined. However, if your starving and havent a penny to your name, what are you going to be more worried about, a beating or getting paid? the true crime and true cause of these problems is capitalism. Crime is the by product of capitalism, it causes greed, and causes poverty, it causes exploitation-while for the minority it can produce great wealth and power. This inequality is the crime, not "do-gooders" who argue for human rights. When you allow police and citizens to be violent, you best believe that the criminal will fight back, therefore the police will out number the criminal, then beat him - rodney king for example. That cant be the answer.
Matt
Matt
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Guest
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Guest
I wholeheartedly agree with Gambrinus and Peter Crane.
As a serving Police Officer with 28 years experience I can honestly say that crime has escalated to a all time high.
You are told otherwise by the Government of the day and Home Office statistics are published to back this up.
What you dont see on an Annual basis is the criminal fiddling of these figures that we the Police have to abide by in our recording.
An offender beats a person, smashes a window and steals the injured persons car......he is arrested and found in possession of drugs.....4 offences you might say and thus 4 crimes. Wrong. One crime recorded.
Years ago juvenile offenders were taken before juvenile courts for offending.....no cautions in those days..., andthey were punished... detetntion centre for 6 weeks,,, or borstal for 9 months.
Now before we can even think of getting them before a youth court we have to jump through the hoops of Informal Warning. caution, reprimand. Final warning etc etc... and then the poor sod might go to court to get some community punishment.... the very community he has abused for the past year or two. thats even if he bothers to turn up as he might be levering open another front door in his pursuit of "something to do"
It doesnt and isnt working.
We are frightened of telling the truth about criminals and even more frightened of taking action. Our prisons are full.... WHY? Too many people offending and why do they offend?
Because they are allowed to do so too many times under the rules of engagement today.
Police Officers are fighting crime with both hands tied firmly behind their backs and who suffers?
The public of course.
I cant wait to retire from this job I loved so much and be free of the constant constraints put upon me by do gooders and criminals who have the last say in a society that has deterioated so badly.
Perhaps then I can use the protection the law gives offenders today to clip someone around the ear who has offended the public and say to the Investigation Officer "No comment" In other words...."You prove it mate"
As a serving Police Officer with 28 years experience I can honestly say that crime has escalated to a all time high.
You are told otherwise by the Government of the day and Home Office statistics are published to back this up.
What you dont see on an Annual basis is the criminal fiddling of these figures that we the Police have to abide by in our recording.
An offender beats a person, smashes a window and steals the injured persons car......he is arrested and found in possession of drugs.....4 offences you might say and thus 4 crimes. Wrong. One crime recorded.
Years ago juvenile offenders were taken before juvenile courts for offending.....no cautions in those days..., andthey were punished... detetntion centre for 6 weeks,,, or borstal for 9 months.
Now before we can even think of getting them before a youth court we have to jump through the hoops of Informal Warning. caution, reprimand. Final warning etc etc... and then the poor sod might go to court to get some community punishment.... the very community he has abused for the past year or two. thats even if he bothers to turn up as he might be levering open another front door in his pursuit of "something to do"
It doesnt and isnt working.
We are frightened of telling the truth about criminals and even more frightened of taking action. Our prisons are full.... WHY? Too many people offending and why do they offend?
Because they are allowed to do so too many times under the rules of engagement today.
Police Officers are fighting crime with both hands tied firmly behind their backs and who suffers?
The public of course.
I cant wait to retire from this job I loved so much and be free of the constant constraints put upon me by do gooders and criminals who have the last say in a society that has deterioated so badly.
Perhaps then I can use the protection the law gives offenders today to clip someone around the ear who has offended the public and say to the Investigation Officer "No comment" In other words...."You prove it mate"