Saturday Evening GNR Activity

Dalcassian · Post by **Dalcassian** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 am

Would you all like to say a private prayer to your God for the souls of the two women killed and for the quick recovery of the third?
Another thing, we know the driver was Portuguese. Were the women locals or visitors?

Gambrinus · Post by **Gambrinus** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:33 am

cowboy wrote:
What was that line again...? Ah yes, "guns don't kill people, people kill people." - b*llocks! A 600cc bike or a 350Bhp car are just as much a weapon if they get into the wrong hands as a gun or a rifle.....

Once the gun, rifle, motercycle or 350Bhp car is sold, it becomes a public issue on how it is used (i.e. the police).....and it seems, from what has been said here, the police have really let those poor people down.

So what would be easier? Sitting a cop on the back of every hot ride or along any stretch of road to prevent traffic accidents or enforce additional driving education or sensitivity training for every vehicle sold with a certain power/weight ratio?? You could just add another class to the driving license with supplemental education, say 5 hours theory, 5 hours practical.

The cops in Carvoeiro and around other Portuguese towns often don't even have enough fuel to run their patrol cars for a whole month and need to resort to their own private vehicles to move around. The also do not posess a radar device and have to rely on the traffic brigade to find their way into town to preform speed control.
That is the sad part - yes, they were fully aware that these kids exceed the speed limit on a daily basis, but by law, unless they are able to proove the transgression with video or radar proof, they cannot do anything about it.

This is why we have been begging Lagoa council to put in speed bumps for years - passive control is the only way to minimize the threat at the moment.

Anti Hump! · Post by **Anti Hump!** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:15 am

Speed humps! I bet the guy who drives the little tourist train around Cvo would love them........not! I am never in favour of speed humps, they only usually annoy the sensible drivers it is a way of punishing everyone for the sake of a few idiots who do not abide by the law!

tricky · Post by **tricky** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:36 am

That's a really odd attitude to have antispeedbump,
so just because speedbumps are annoying they shouldn't be allowed even if it means saving lives. It isn't an ideal world, people don't all behave the same unfortunately (or unfortunately) and yes it is annoying that many of us have to put up with inconvieniences when we behave quite correctly,
but does that matter if it prevents an accident?

Tricky

scanny · Post by **scanny** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:10 am

Gambrinus wrote:...and what if I told you, that he has to help his mother make a living because she lost her husband last year? ....and that if you stick him in jail, she will be left with nobody and will have to work overtime cleaning houses so be able to pay for her crummy apartment and feed herself? Still want him dead or in jail for life?

How can he be helping his mother making a living when all he does is drive up and down Carvoeiro. Reading what you put above the mother would be better off on her own because at he end of the day it seems the money she works for goes towards the cost of the bike. I have a daughter who sometimes walks down to her friends house in Carvoeiro but often worry because of the speed of some of the drivers. (not all are like that) If this biker had killed a member of my family through reckless driving I would want him dead to.
When I was told about this and that 2 had died, my words were well he deserves to be dead but then was told he is still alive, this was a shock to me.
My thoughts are with the family and friends of the victims whos lives the biker took.

Anti Hump! · Post by **Anti Hump!** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:40 pm

tricky wrote:That's a really odd attitude to have antispeedbump,
so just because speedbumps are annoying they shouldn't be allowed even if it means saving lives. It isn't an ideal world, people don't all behave the same unfortunately (or unfortunately) and yes it is annoying that many of us have to put up with inconvieniences when we behave quite correctly,
but does that matter if it prevents an accident?

Tricky

Hmmm you have just said I have an odd attitude and yet further on have argued my point for me!

yes it is annoying that many of us have to put up with inconveniences when we behave quite correctly

I think the best way to deal with this is make an example of the criminal!not the law abiding citizens

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:02 pm

The bit about putting up with annoyances was supposed to be tongue in cheek

Tricky

Gambrinus · Post by **Gambrinus** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:22 pm

scanny wrote:If this biker had killed a member of my family through reckless driving I would want him dead to.

...nobody would blame you for it and I would probably feel the same way.

I am just trying to explore the grey areas around this incident - we have employed his mum for many years and that family is not without tragedies. He does work hard every day cleaning pools to earn his keep and help his mum.

He made an unforgivable mistake and deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law. He also deserves to have his licence revoked.

However, all this will not undo what has happened nor will it make up for the loss of life. It will also do nothing towards preventing future incidents like this.

The speed bumps are a short term solution that can provide some safety in a very limited area.

My concern (besides giving overpowered machines to ill-equipped drivers) is, that although Portugal still has some of the worst road statistics in Europe, nothing will be done to shift the predominant mentality from "I own this road" to "I should abide by the rules and respect others"

I stood over the smoldering wreck of that bike on Saturday, I saw the woman lying motionless in the street under a blood-soaked sheet, I saw the sheer devastation on a street that I walk almost every day.
I spent the rest of the evening talking to people about it and thinking about the times I pushed the envelope when I was his age, how many times I was closer than I would have liked to finding myself in his situation. I was lucky enough to learn my lesson before something worse happened.

This is just an idea:
Instead of locking him up and throwing away the key, why don't they pass down a sentence with a jail term which he has the choice to shorten by participating in a campaign to raise public awareness - make him the poster child for road safety. Show how a young, irresponsible driver not only ended the lives of innocent bystanders but also tore his own family apart in the process and changed his life forever.

Maybe it is all just wishful thinking - untill now the laws have only changed to incriminate drivers whilst little or nothing has been done to educate them. With the number of cars and bikes on public roads increasing year by year, things are likely to get worse before they improve.

cowboy · Post by **cowboy** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:19 pm

Gambrinus wrote: So what would be easier? Sitting a cop on the back of every hot ride or along any stretch of road to prevent traffic accidents or enforce additional driving education or sensitivity training for every vehicle sold with a certain power/weight ratio?? You could just add another class to the driving license with supplemental education, say 5 hours theory, 5 hours practical.

While I'm a big fan of driver training, I doubt if would have helped in this situation. He used very bad judgement, and I'm not sure you can teach good judgement.

The cops in Carvoeiro and around other Portuguese towns often don't even have enough fuel to run their patrol cars for a whole month and need to resort to their own private vehicles to move around. The also do not posess a radar device and have to rely on the traffic brigade to find their way into town to preform speed control.

You can always tell the priorities of a society by where they put their money. Obviously, in Portugal, speeding is not a priority.

That is the sad part - yes, they were fully aware that these kids exceed the speed limit on a daily basis, but by law, unless they are able to proove the transgression with video or radar proof, they cannot do anything about it.

Again, priorities. If the police really wanted to stop those kids from speeding I'm sure they could find ways to do it.
(go to a bike rally, and you will find cops coming out of the woodwork issuing tickets for everything from speeding to improper parking...so it can be done.

As it sits, the police don't give a damn and this wreck was bound to happen sooner or later. No amount of training can stop a young kid from speeding, but revoking his drivers licence can.

elle · Post by **elle** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:31 pm

Revoking the licence yes Coop..but for how long? and surely the man who caused this terrible tragedy(yes a man,if hes 21, he isn't a kid) has to learn his lesson?
My family knows only too well, the terrible grief of losing a loved one in such a sudden and dreadful manner. Not only my late father, killed by a reckless driver, whose vehicle was totally unfit to be on the road. But my cousin, who lost his only child, son of 21..wiped of the road by a drunken driver.
Yet I am not without sympathy for this young man who caused this loss of life. He will indeed, have to live with those deaths on his conscience for the rest of his life..and my heart goes out to not only those who lost loved ones last Saturday night, but to this young man's mother too..as a mother, she will bear his burden too!
Even in my mothers awful time of grieving, she found sympathy for the man who killed her beloved husband. She actually spoke to him at the inquest and he was in a terrible state,knowing he had killed the father of 3 children. But he was a family man too. He lost his driving licence,had 2 year suspended sentence. So in that respect, he lost his livelihood too.
I hope to God that something is done and done soon, about the traffic around Carvoeiro.. its highly dangerous at times and often diificult, if not impossible to walk safely there at times, having to step out into the road with all the pavement parking there. If this dreadful accident doesn't provoke action..then nothing will !
A sad sad week for our favourite little town

elliex

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:36 pm

Unfortunately we will never be rid of such horrific accidents on Portugals or any other roads on this world.

I, like gambrinus, sailed very close to the wind as young motorcyclist beleiving I was immune from being involved or causing an accident. How I, like hundreds of other youngsters survived and continue to do so doesn't bear thinking about.

The Police in any country have an up hill battle to enforce speeding laws. They are critisised for doing their best in this area by law abiding motorists and as this tragic incident shows, they are condemned for NOT apparantly doing anything.
The thrust of any Police endeavours to reduce the carnage on roads is taken seriously by the officers taking part in campaigns but comments made by Cowboy that the Police dont give a damn is unfair.

Gambrinus states that the Police in the area have financial restarints, as they do here in the UK. The fact remains with all aspects of law breaking that you still have to catch the offender.

A recent police campaign brought young drivers to a course designed to combat speed.They were shown actual fatal accident Police pictures of the carnage left behind after an accident. This type of learning is real and productive.

There are no answers to this terrible problem and it will never go away. Please dont blame the Police. They will never be able to combat a moment of madness.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:03 pm

I remember as a young biker having a talk from a leading 'patch 'em up' surgeon (with photographs) - his vivid demonstration of what happens to your limbs as you skid down the road (using a watermelon and a power sander) was graphic to say the least.

The UK has strict power / age rules and I am surprised that they are not Europe wide. I also remember that until I was 20 it was almost impossible to insure anything over 250cc - was the guy insured? (I really hope so), but if not surely that was the route the GNR should have taken to get him off the road.

I must also admit that I have been somewhat blase in crossing this particular road - I also find that many pedestrians just step into the road without looking - in light of recent events maybe pedestrians will be more careful, and I hope that any publicity that surrounds this creates more care from both motorists AND pedestrians and avoids a repeat tragedy.

bifas 1st darling! · Post by **bifas 1st darling!** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:22 pm

the two ladies that died were Portugues from Lisbon, the other (the first one to be hit) has a broken arm and is German or English, all here on holiday

How can he be helping his mother making a living when all he does is drive up and down Carvoeiro.

He's a painter and works very hard, nice lad not into drink or drugs just liked riding his bike too fast around Carvoeiro, as do several of the young boys. Maybe they'll think twice now.

Yes he did have a yellow cross type of bike, the one in the accident was about two months old....

degsy · Post by **degsy** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:41 pm

driving standards in the town was a bit of a poor part of the holiday. The pavements being parked on are another tragedy waiting to happen. Wait until a kid gets knocked down, then see what changes?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:53 pm

God forbid that ever happens degsy

But I think parents will be much more vigilant after that terrible tragedy almost 2 weeks ago.Indeed as we all should be.