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Discrepancies between sales and valuations
Unfortunately, anything is possible here, Graham and no, you can't trust anyone, not even a lawyer I'm afraid. That is why I keep banging on about it in my Bruxy Corner and in my postings. Believe me, I don't enjoy doing it, but after being here for a while and seeing what went on, I felt I had a duty to protect people buying here. Foreigners buying property are often like lambs to the slaughter.
You should have copies of your property documents:
Certidão de Registo Predial
Caderneta(s)
Deed
Habitation Licence
Invoices for what you paid to lawyers etc
Offshore company documents
Actually offshore isn't my thing, but I know Nightrider will have a view on this and maybe can give you some more help on that.
Mortgage companies generally believe the documents that are placed in front of them by a lawyer from here.
You should have copies of your property documents:
Certidão de Registo Predial
Caderneta(s)
Deed
Habitation Licence
Invoices for what you paid to lawyers etc
Offshore company documents
Actually offshore isn't my thing, but I know Nightrider will have a view on this and maybe can give you some more help on that.
Mortgage companies generally believe the documents that are placed in front of them by a lawyer from here.
-
nightrider
Graham,
Is your property in Carvoeiro or surrounding area?
Can you give me the year and month that you purchased?
Was the lawyer for Pestana and Abbey Nat the same?
I am aware of lawyers that Abbey Nat formally used here in the Algarve ....and it will help me if you can just say the location i.e. Lagoa....
I am assuming that you re-domiciled the offshore company to a White Listed Jurisdicion (i.e. Malta, Delaware etc) and for this purpose you had to change your mortgage company.In that Abbey Nat would not permit you to move the company unless your mortage with them was cleared first.
Who are your management people now?
Documents:-
Your present Mortgage Company, will hold your Shares Certificates and will only release these would you have cleared and/or sell your present property.
Companies House in relationship to the Country that your Offshore Company is now registered in...you can acquire a certified copy of all your documents.
The only thing that will have changed in your Company title and by way of example if your Company was Browns Ltd (Gibralter) and say you are now in Delaware the title would now be Browns LLA
The name of your Offshore Company will be registered in the Central Register in Lisboa. Each company having it's own number, normally commencing with the No.9..........
I am assuming that you also have a Fiscal Representative here in Portugal.(This is law).
Your Rates Bills, will be in your company name/number and will be forwared to your Fiscal Rep's Office. If they pay the bills and then bill you. You should ask for a copy of your rates bills.
A lot of owners of properties who choose the offshore method of ownership in the main have nominees holding their shares, normally officers from your management company and a certificate issued confirming the true ownership (ie yourself and whoever etc)....when the management company changed, new share certificates should have been issued to Totta (your mortgage lender)...I cannot see why you cannot have copies of these documents....ask your management company or the bank.
Bruxy above has advised that you can obtain as the owner, all the documents (certified copies) representing your property.
I hope the above is of some help to you.
Regards
N.R.
Is your property in Carvoeiro or surrounding area?
Can you give me the year and month that you purchased?
Was the lawyer for Pestana and Abbey Nat the same?
I am aware of lawyers that Abbey Nat formally used here in the Algarve ....and it will help me if you can just say the location i.e. Lagoa....
I am assuming that you re-domiciled the offshore company to a White Listed Jurisdicion (i.e. Malta, Delaware etc) and for this purpose you had to change your mortgage company.In that Abbey Nat would not permit you to move the company unless your mortage with them was cleared first.
Who are your management people now?
Documents:-
Your present Mortgage Company, will hold your Shares Certificates and will only release these would you have cleared and/or sell your present property.
Companies House in relationship to the Country that your Offshore Company is now registered in...you can acquire a certified copy of all your documents.
The only thing that will have changed in your Company title and by way of example if your Company was Browns Ltd (Gibralter) and say you are now in Delaware the title would now be Browns LLA
The name of your Offshore Company will be registered in the Central Register in Lisboa. Each company having it's own number, normally commencing with the No.9..........
I am assuming that you also have a Fiscal Representative here in Portugal.(This is law).
Your Rates Bills, will be in your company name/number and will be forwared to your Fiscal Rep's Office. If they pay the bills and then bill you. You should ask for a copy of your rates bills.
A lot of owners of properties who choose the offshore method of ownership in the main have nominees holding their shares, normally officers from your management company and a certificate issued confirming the true ownership (ie yourself and whoever etc)....when the management company changed, new share certificates should have been issued to Totta (your mortgage lender)...I cannot see why you cannot have copies of these documents....ask your management company or the bank.
Bruxy above has advised that you can obtain as the owner, all the documents (certified copies) representing your property.
I hope the above is of some help to you.
Regards
N.R.
Last edited by nightrider on Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi NR - thanks for all that. I thought about putting this in a PM but for the moment I am happy to keep it public since it may be of interest to others.
To address your points :
The property is on the golf course
No, my lawyer recommended by Pestana was I.C in Lagoa and Abbey used C.B.
I am still in the process of re-domeciliation. (Delaware). Finally got the mortgage moved after a lot of work. Yes, Abbey would not authorise the move.
Current management is Capital Growth in Gibralter
Yes, I have a fiscal rep. It is Pestana and they do send through copies of the rates bills and do the tax returns.
Yes the shares are held by nominees.
I have to say that I have been impressed with most things organized by Pestana so would be very surprised if things were not as they seem - from the answers above do you think differently
To address your points :
The property is on the golf course
No, my lawyer recommended by Pestana was I.C in Lagoa and Abbey used C.B.
I am still in the process of re-domeciliation. (Delaware). Finally got the mortgage moved after a lot of work. Yes, Abbey would not authorise the move.
Current management is Capital Growth in Gibralter
Yes, I have a fiscal rep. It is Pestana and they do send through copies of the rates bills and do the tax returns.
Yes the shares are held by nominees.
I have to say that I have been impressed with most things organized by Pestana so would be very surprised if things were not as they seem - from the answers above do you think differently
-
nightrider
Hi Graham,
I will study your replies more fully and get back to you. As for Pestana of course they are one of the biggest developers and I personally have not heard any adverse comments about them. In the meantime please feel free if you wish to ask any further questions... that either Bruxy or I may know the answers to.
Regards
N.R.
I will study your replies more fully and get back to you. As for Pestana of course they are one of the biggest developers and I personally have not heard any adverse comments about them. In the meantime please feel free if you wish to ask any further questions... that either Bruxy or I may know the answers to.
Regards
N.R.
Having just returned from sorting out a friend's electricity contract this afternoon, a job his lawyer was meant to have done 3 months ago, unfortunately Richard, I will have to say 99% of them probably are. Maybe your friend is the odd 1%, of course. 
I don't recall seeing any "lawyer" types up there last week...hmmm...you can normally tell by the way they are dressed. 
By the way, one of the staff at EDP groaned, when I told her why we were there and said "they hardly ever bother to change the electricity contracts." I have a good mind to bill my friend's lawyer for my petrol and time this afternoon, seeing as he earnt a few thousand Euros for "dealing" with the purchase.
I am endeavouring to search for more than the one (seemingly) reputable company I have found so far. I have discovered another potential candidate. I am going to try to interview him. I'll let you all know.
I don't recall seeing any "lawyer" types up there last week...hmmm...you can normally tell by the way they are dressed. By the way, one of the staff at EDP groaned, when I told her why we were there and said "they hardly ever bother to change the electricity contracts." I have a good mind to bill my friend's lawyer for my petrol and time this afternoon, seeing as he earnt a few thousand Euros for "dealing" with the purchase.
I am endeavouring to search for more than the one (seemingly) reputable company I have found so far. I have discovered another potential candidate. I am going to try to interview him. I'll let you all know.
-
nightrider
Hi Graham,
I have gone over your replies to my questions again and the only other comments I have for the moment are:-
You have moved your Offshore Company from a Black Listed to a White Listed domicile jurisdiction nothing therefore has really changed, with the exception that you are exempt from being well taxed here in Portugal and the costs involved in the transfer. I and many others still believe that purchasing offshore is still a firm favourite for anyone who really studies the facts. The scare tactics that were put around a few years ago...well all I can say is it suited some of the financial boys, lawyers and Estate Agents very nicely.I.e. we were made aware that properties were being devalued for quick sales, because the owners were being told "Offshore Properties" nobody wanted to purchase.. and some of the said individuals which is totally illegale were purchasing unknown to their clients their properties themselves and then flogging them off for hugh profit etc etc.
Today those with brains in their heads and read whats really going on in the world.... know full well that Offshore Own Properties are still the best way to own property.
My last comment today, is to strongly advise you to go to the Land Registry in Lagoa without any delay (or get someone to go for you that you trust) and therefore prior to the redomicilation of your offshore company acquire a certified copy of your Land Registry Document.When you are advised that the company has been redomiciled wait a few weeks and then go again and get another copy. Given the people that you are dealing with I feel that the following will not apply in your case.
We are aware that during a transaction an owner of a large amount of land/property...when it was re-registered from Gilbrater LTD to Delaware LLC at the Land Registry..the new document issued displayed that the land had been reduced and that likewise the owner's caderneta (Rates Bill) displayed the same alterations. The land reduction also displayed on the Cadastral Map had been altered without his knowledge. However, you are on a golf course sort of complex, so I honestly do not feel that you are in any danger of this happening to you. But nevertheless, I personally, would check such documents if I was re-registering and compare the old documents against the new registered ones ...and of course to ensure that no alteration without our knowledge had been made to our property. This problem happens more in the rural areas, but has happened on urban plots as well.
Regard.
N.R.
I have gone over your replies to my questions again and the only other comments I have for the moment are:-
You have moved your Offshore Company from a Black Listed to a White Listed domicile jurisdiction nothing therefore has really changed, with the exception that you are exempt from being well taxed here in Portugal and the costs involved in the transfer. I and many others still believe that purchasing offshore is still a firm favourite for anyone who really studies the facts. The scare tactics that were put around a few years ago...well all I can say is it suited some of the financial boys, lawyers and Estate Agents very nicely.I.e. we were made aware that properties were being devalued for quick sales, because the owners were being told "Offshore Properties" nobody wanted to purchase.. and some of the said individuals which is totally illegale were purchasing unknown to their clients their properties themselves and then flogging them off for hugh profit etc etc.
Today those with brains in their heads and read whats really going on in the world.... know full well that Offshore Own Properties are still the best way to own property.
My last comment today, is to strongly advise you to go to the Land Registry in Lagoa without any delay (or get someone to go for you that you trust) and therefore prior to the redomicilation of your offshore company acquire a certified copy of your Land Registry Document.When you are advised that the company has been redomiciled wait a few weeks and then go again and get another copy. Given the people that you are dealing with I feel that the following will not apply in your case.
We are aware that during a transaction an owner of a large amount of land/property...when it was re-registered from Gilbrater LTD to Delaware LLC at the Land Registry..the new document issued displayed that the land had been reduced and that likewise the owner's caderneta (Rates Bill) displayed the same alterations. The land reduction also displayed on the Cadastral Map had been altered without his knowledge. However, you are on a golf course sort of complex, so I honestly do not feel that you are in any danger of this happening to you. But nevertheless, I personally, would check such documents if I was re-registering and compare the old documents against the new registered ones ...and of course to ensure that no alteration without our knowledge had been made to our property. This problem happens more in the rural areas, but has happened on urban plots as well.
Regard.
N.R.