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Estate agents, lawyers (split topic)
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elle
Well, I know who's advise I'd seek if / when we look for property in Algarve Bruxhy 
I had to look up 'caveat emptor' in my latin dictionary (can't remember much of what I learnt at school
)..
Is it, Beware Buyer/ Purchaser ? Be on your guard?
BTW..enjoyed your new page on your corner Brux!
Good stuff!
ellie
I had to look up 'caveat emptor' in my latin dictionary (can't remember much of what I learnt at school
)..Is it, Beware Buyer/ Purchaser ? Be on your guard?
BTW..enjoyed your new page on your corner Brux!
Good stuff!
ellie
Thanks Ellie. 
You know what I am like, when I get passionate about stuff? Hey, but isn't it better to be passionate about things, than not to give a toss about anything in this world? I suppose I could have a quiet life and get on with my other stuff, which would be a lot more productive and useful to me and say sod everyone else, but it isn't me. I know another young woman, who is probably laughing at me at the moment, if she is reading.
You know what I am like, when I get passionate about stuff? Hey, but isn't it better to be passionate about things, than not to give a toss about anything in this world? I suppose I could have a quiet life and get on with my other stuff, which would be a lot more productive and useful to me and say sod everyone else, but it isn't me. I know another young woman, who is probably laughing at me at the moment, if she is reading.
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nightrider
Ok to bring it really down to simple terms. Mr and Mrs Smith see a property and/or land....they instruct a lawyer...and then normally the saga is..Mr & Mrs Smith goes back to UK giving a lawyer POA and deposit..."the lawyer" has an absolute duty to protect the interests of his client...therefore... BUYER BEWARE...does not apply...of course this is just one brief example...another brief example would be a lawyer/builder/estate agent/arhictect operating as one unit....and therefore, not operating in the clients best interest.......Anonymous wrote:Humour me, and explain where I have gone wrong. And don't be abusive by suggesting that I am thick.
Oh and buy the way a lawyer acting as an Estate Agent if caught doing so would be struck off....Hope this is now clear Guest. Nightrider.
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Guest
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nightrider
Obviously not.Anonymous wrote:No. I have no idea what you are talking about.
I thought caveat emptor really implied 'never trust anybody' But then I only did Latin up to A level so probably never learnt the subtle nuances of an ancient language
Latin meaning and Legal usage of Caveat Emptor = Let the buyer be aware:
Nightrider
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Guest
I have asked this question before, but is there not some way a list of the less reputable could be compliled.
There are internet forums who do this .
I would just like to know HOW any of us who want to buy property can tell the good from the bad.
Estate agents registered, No guarantee !!
Builder reg company , " "
Lawyer solicitor, fully qualified and established , No guarantee.
Haviong your paperwork checked out in UK , "
Sounds terrible doesn,t it, BUT just how many buyers are well and truly conned rather than NOT getting what they thought they were ??
I honestly can,t remember any publicity back here in the UK about problems in Portugal.
But Spain and others are in the Press and on TV virtually every week.
There are internet forums who do this .
I would just like to know HOW any of us who want to buy property can tell the good from the bad.
Estate agents registered, No guarantee !!
Builder reg company , " "
Lawyer solicitor, fully qualified and established , No guarantee.
Haviong your paperwork checked out in UK , "
Sounds terrible doesn,t it, BUT just how many buyers are well and truly conned rather than NOT getting what they thought they were ??
I honestly can,t remember any publicity back here in the UK about problems in Portugal.
But Spain and others are in the Press and on TV virtually every week.
Portugal is never in the news because Spain has always been the more popular place to buy property and a much much bigger country and as a consequence things have "come out" sooner. Give it time and I am sure things will start to emerge about Portugal too. I mean, if you look at the Times overseas property section, they rarely have any articles on Portugal in any capacity.
Unfortunately, tbbr it is very difficult to guarantee anything or anyone here. I personally would only touch one lawyer's practice and that is in Lisboa with offices in Faro and the UK. They cost "top dollar" but why save a couple of thousand, when something could cost you many thousands. I would love more people to make complaints, get together as a group and fight things but they don't seem to want to or know how to. A lot of people that I help out, when I say ok, you should make a complaint to the authorities or go to the police, say "Oh, I don't want to cause any trouble, I have to live here" and other things along that line. I can't go against their wishes and do it. It isn't my place and I have to always respect people's confidentiality. Many people also get blackmailed here because they have done a "deal" to evade tax/money launder etc and so if they make a fuss about the builder/lawyer etc, they will also get found out. I have had several pms this year from 3 or 4 different people with serious problems with the same lawyer. I asked them individually if they would like to meet each other and organise a report to go to the authorities. I am sure we would have had some success but none of them wanted to go forward. Too scared.
Some people have decided to pursue things with my help but the wheels turn slowly. I will be interested to see the outcome and hope to be in a position to report back in the future.
I hope with more people, like myself writing stuff on here, in magazines and papers etc it will help expose the problems.
I am more than happy to co-ordinate complaints and move them forward on people's behalf. It is something I could consider on my web site for the future.
Not getting what you thought you were getting and being conned...aren't they the same? As an example and something I have been working on this morning with a local Silves expat, if you think you are buying a plot of land and without your knowledge the lawyer and the owner do a deal to slice a large section off and keep it back for themselves at the time of signing (you don't realise because the lawyer has power of attorney and you don't speak Portuguese, so can't read the documents). Later they sell it on to someone else to build a house on. Is that not being conned? You are not going to get what you thought you were getting and you could have maybe split it off yourself, got permission to build on it and made a nice profit. Have you or have you not been shafted? Would you be happy if that happened to you? No one likes being taken advantage off, do they?
Oh dear, I am going to start writing another thesis again.
You must do what you are happiest to do tbbr. All I and some others can do is warn people as to the risks and problems they could encounter and if they take no notice and/or think they know better, best of luck to them. I can't hold everyone's hand in this world unfortunately.
By the way, taking the paperwork to the UK to have it checked over by a Portuguese translator/legal adviser maybe isn't such a bad idea.
Unfortunately, tbbr it is very difficult to guarantee anything or anyone here. I personally would only touch one lawyer's practice and that is in Lisboa with offices in Faro and the UK. They cost "top dollar" but why save a couple of thousand, when something could cost you many thousands. I would love more people to make complaints, get together as a group and fight things but they don't seem to want to or know how to. A lot of people that I help out, when I say ok, you should make a complaint to the authorities or go to the police, say "Oh, I don't want to cause any trouble, I have to live here" and other things along that line. I can't go against their wishes and do it. It isn't my place and I have to always respect people's confidentiality. Many people also get blackmailed here because they have done a "deal" to evade tax/money launder etc and so if they make a fuss about the builder/lawyer etc, they will also get found out. I have had several pms this year from 3 or 4 different people with serious problems with the same lawyer. I asked them individually if they would like to meet each other and organise a report to go to the authorities. I am sure we would have had some success but none of them wanted to go forward. Too scared.
Some people have decided to pursue things with my help but the wheels turn slowly. I will be interested to see the outcome and hope to be in a position to report back in the future.
I hope with more people, like myself writing stuff on here, in magazines and papers etc it will help expose the problems.
I am more than happy to co-ordinate complaints and move them forward on people's behalf. It is something I could consider on my web site for the future.
Not getting what you thought you were getting and being conned...aren't they the same? As an example and something I have been working on this morning with a local Silves expat, if you think you are buying a plot of land and without your knowledge the lawyer and the owner do a deal to slice a large section off and keep it back for themselves at the time of signing (you don't realise because the lawyer has power of attorney and you don't speak Portuguese, so can't read the documents). Later they sell it on to someone else to build a house on. Is that not being conned? You are not going to get what you thought you were getting and you could have maybe split it off yourself, got permission to build on it and made a nice profit. Have you or have you not been shafted? Would you be happy if that happened to you? No one likes being taken advantage off, do they?
Oh dear, I am going to start writing another thesis again.
You must do what you are happiest to do tbbr. All I and some others can do is warn people as to the risks and problems they could encounter and if they take no notice and/or think they know better, best of luck to them. I can't hold everyone's hand in this world unfortunately.
By the way, taking the paperwork to the UK to have it checked over by a Portuguese translator/legal adviser maybe isn't such a bad idea.
Last edited by Bruxinha on Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guest
Now I'm totally confused. On the one hand you seem to be saying ' watch out for lawyers, especially if they have been given POA, and on the other hand your mother is saying that the lawyer will act in your best interest, especially if you have given him POA, and that therefore caveat emptor isn't something one has to worry about.
Who am I to believe?
Who am I to believe?
I can't speak for Nightrider but I know that is the total opposite of what she believes. If she doesn't express herself correctly, that is her problem.
I personally would give NO ONE POA!!!!!!!!! Lawyers rarely seem to act in anyone's best interests here, other than their own.
Please note I am an individual in my own right and my views do not reflect those of anyone, including members of my own family. Thank you.
I personally would give NO ONE POA!!!!!!!!! Lawyers rarely seem to act in anyone's best interests here, other than their own.
Please note I am an individual in my own right and my views do not reflect those of anyone, including members of my own family. Thank you.
Sorry, I haven't found one in the Algarve yet Gambo I'm afraid, but of course there must be one or two...I hope. 
I obviously get to know the ones that just cause grief.
I have had dealings with Neville de Rougemont, who are in Lisboa, Faro and Maidenhead, UK and they seem fairly pucker. They write in a lot of magazines too. They give you narratives and facturas (invoices) for everything they do and send you hard copies by registered post. I know a couple of forum members that have used them and had positive experiences. I see a lot of Algarve lawyers just communicating by vague e-mails and sending scrappy bits of paper to people with their costs on and sometimes not even an engagement letter.
If you have to make time to sign for yourself, you should make it. Buying a house is too much of an expensive purchase, to let someone else take control IMHO.
I obviously get to know the ones that just cause grief. I have had dealings with Neville de Rougemont, who are in Lisboa, Faro and Maidenhead, UK and they seem fairly pucker. They write in a lot of magazines too. They give you narratives and facturas (invoices) for everything they do and send you hard copies by registered post. I know a couple of forum members that have used them and had positive experiences. I see a lot of Algarve lawyers just communicating by vague e-mails and sending scrappy bits of paper to people with their costs on and sometimes not even an engagement letter.
If you have to make time to sign for yourself, you should make it. Buying a house is too much of an expensive purchase, to let someone else take control IMHO.
When we purchased our current property we did give ( as have many others ) the lawyer POA.
Our UK Notary ( for a national practice ) was not concerned with this in fact he has dealt with 100,s as the overseas buying boom took hold.
We have received copies ( or originals ) of all paperwork.
I can only think that there is a big difference in buying on an established development or urbanisation to that of that " special rural " property or plot or " ruin " just right for development.
Lets be honest if property cost as much as in the UK, if the costs of buying were the same, if the rate of capital increase was the same how many of us would even think of buying in Portugal or anywhere else.
I admit to not knowing a large number of permanent algarvian ex pats but I would have thought that after reading not just this other forums and hearsay we would have heard much more of the problems etc.
Our UK Notary ( for a national practice ) was not concerned with this in fact he has dealt with 100,s as the overseas buying boom took hold.
We have received copies ( or originals ) of all paperwork.
I can only think that there is a big difference in buying on an established development or urbanisation to that of that " special rural " property or plot or " ruin " just right for development.
Lets be honest if property cost as much as in the UK, if the costs of buying were the same, if the rate of capital increase was the same how many of us would even think of buying in Portugal or anywhere else.
I admit to not knowing a large number of permanent algarvian ex pats but I would have thought that after reading not just this other forums and hearsay we would have heard much more of the problems etc.
In general, I would agree with you, there is more of a risk in buying rustic property, as opposed to established urbanisations and apartments etc, although one musn't be complacent. I have seen illegal rooms/extensions not picked up by lawyers and also under declarations of property values and all the tax implications that can later have etc.
Have you had your documents translated by a proper Portuguese speaker other than your lawyer though, to make sure of what they say? Do you know word for word what they have signed on your behalf?
I think the problem is a lot of expats don't know they have been shafted or that they have a problem until later. The guy I was with this morning had no idea that he didn't have the right number of cadernetas and other legal documents and he has been here a few years now and only because of something his neighbour has done, did he have cause to ask me for some advice and show me his papers. Next week we are going to have to go and try to find all the paperwork.
I am not saying to anyone not to buy here, of course not, if they really want to, but there are ways and means of protecting yourself and as I said before if you try to cut corners and let other people deal with everything you are taking a big risk. I am not making up anything I say. Why would I? My good friends and family have investments here too. However, we must also remember that not everyone is interested in investments and money related matters. In fact, I would say the majority of people in the past, who bought here just came because they wanted to live here, not to increase their bank balance.
Have you had your documents translated by a proper Portuguese speaker other than your lawyer though, to make sure of what they say? Do you know word for word what they have signed on your behalf?
I think the problem is a lot of expats don't know they have been shafted or that they have a problem until later. The guy I was with this morning had no idea that he didn't have the right number of cadernetas and other legal documents and he has been here a few years now and only because of something his neighbour has done, did he have cause to ask me for some advice and show me his papers. Next week we are going to have to go and try to find all the paperwork.
I am not saying to anyone not to buy here, of course not, if they really want to, but there are ways and means of protecting yourself and as I said before if you try to cut corners and let other people deal with everything you are taking a big risk. I am not making up anything I say. Why would I? My good friends and family have investments here too. However, we must also remember that not everyone is interested in investments and money related matters. In fact, I would say the majority of people in the past, who bought here just came because they wanted to live here, not to increase their bank balance.
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nightrider
TBBR:-
I sincerely, hope that your present transaction will go well for you.
Annoymouse Guest(s),
Those of you that have and are purchasing at present Land to be developed.... again I sincerely, hope that all goes well for you.
However, I have deep concern over two transactions, that I am presently, aware of!
As for my comment with regard lawyers, I was merely trying to say that what should be the case of "looking after their clients interests" sadly more often than not when purchasing a property here in Portugal.... time after time proves not to be the case....and frankly, I am fed up with these individuals who are in privileged positions getting rich on the misery of others.
Lastly, I have throughly checked all Registered Members Names and I can find none called Mother.
Nightrider
I sincerely, hope that your present transaction will go well for you.
Annoymouse Guest(s),
Those of you that have and are purchasing at present Land to be developed.... again I sincerely, hope that all goes well for you.
However, I have deep concern over two transactions, that I am presently, aware of!
As for my comment with regard lawyers, I was merely trying to say that what should be the case of "looking after their clients interests" sadly more often than not when purchasing a property here in Portugal.... time after time proves not to be the case....and frankly, I am fed up with these individuals who are in privileged positions getting rich on the misery of others.
Lastly, I have throughly checked all Registered Members Names and I can find none called Mother.
Nightrider