Following up from my Bruxy Corner this month, where I talk about the stupidty and risks in underdeclaring property values, I came across this in the Correio da Manhã national newspaper:

http://www.correiomanha.pt/noticia.asp? ... al=11&p=94

Basically it says that firms that sold buildings in 2004, at a price inferior to that calculated by the Direcção-Geral de Impostos have until the end of this month to correct the values. According to the Finance Ministry there is a discrepancy of 230 million Euros!

Very Interesting Bruxy!
Congrats by the way for a very informative feature in the Portugal Mag.
I'm sure you will push their circulation up.

Tricky

Thanks Tricky. I am beginning to sound like an Evangelical preacher, I'm sure, but someone's got to do it! I did laugh at being called an "expert". More like a keen dabbler.

Thanks to others, who have sent messages. I have had a few from people, who read this forum but don't post. Nice of you to bother to send me an e-mail to my Bruxy inbox. One guy was buying a house in central Portugal but he reads this site for info.

Bruxinha wrote:Following up from my Bruxy Corner this month, where I talk about the stupidty and risks in underdeclaring property values, I came across this in the Correio da Manhã national newspaper:

http://www.correiomanha.pt/noticia.asp? ... al=11&p=94

Basically it says that firms that sold buildings in 2004, at a price inferior to that calculated by the Direcção-Geral de Impostos have until the end of this month to correct the values. According to the Finance Ministry there is a discrepancy of 230 million Euros!

.........and that folks is just for 1 little old Year.......

Bruxy,

You know the definition of an expert ?

an EX is a has-been & a

spurt is a drip under pressure !

Jermey,
Will you stop dripping water all over my page
and I am getting a little concerned over our Portuguese builder's "Forward Thinking" (stop laughing reader) because at this precise moment he has got some tiles off our roof and we are now told that it is going to rain today ...watch this space...the day has only just begun..and in the event that it does rain then it is a sure bet that there will bestarted by Mr N.R.

Came across this just this week, the financas would like to receive roughly €10.000 in back taxes and stamp tax by the end of the month for one of my clients who transferred to on-shore last year.

Oweeee!

I can confirm that the tax department are now sending letters to the appointed fiscal representative in those cases where the value declared on sale was less than the newly calculated tax value (the VP). The letter tells the vendor to resubmit the appropriate declaration before the end of January paying the tax due.

Gambrinus wrote:Came across this just this week, the financas would like to receive roughly €10.000 in back taxes and stamp tax by the end of the month for one of my clients who transferred to on-shore last year.
Oweeee!

The problem for a lot of purchasers be they offshore or not, is that many for whatever reason give a Power of Attorney and are therefore, not present when the deed is signed. Many deeds are underclared without the owners being aware...until that is much later when they go to sell.... at which time receive a very nasty tax shock. There are also cases were a lawyer with their client supposidily reads out the Deed which is in Portuguese Text in front of the Notary, but does not make clear the amount on the Deed. Therefore, most owners do not read Portuguese (i.e. the numerals are in text) and therefore, relie heavily on their lawyers..... and when asked to sign the deed at the appropriate place do so trustingly. A lot of purchasers who have been the subject of deception with regard the actual amount declared.....feel that they are in a blackmail situation, in that who will the authorities believe...them..or those who they know have abused their privilaged position.

Most purchasers after there purchase wait a considerable time, before they receive their documents, we have come across quite a lot of purchasers, who have documents missing and other anomilies...such as a document confirming the taxes that have been declared at the Notary.
We are aware of one person at the moment who after 3 months and several communications to his lawyer has only just received them...tog with such documents as Cadernetas are missing. The Elec Bills still in the former owner's name etc etc...

I and others would like to see a situation in Portugal...were the Deed(copy) is in both Portuguese and the purchaser's own language and to be received by the purchaser prior to it's signing at the Notary.
N.R.

Yes, I was at dinner with some friends on Monday night in Carvoeiro. They have a holiday apartment. We got talking about this and that and I mentioned about how underclaring is still going on and that it is now causing problems for some people, as well as the fact that they find they have a nice big Capital Gains Tax bill of 25% to pay when they sell. The husband went as white as a ghost. He said his lawyer had told him no one would sell to him, if he didn't underdeclare the price and was also told that everyone did it and it was normal. He had no idea about the 25% CGT, so I almost ruined his dinner.

Is it any wonder this country is so poor. Certain sectors are bleeding it dry of revenue.

By the way, if anyone wants to make complaints about advice they were given by so-called "professionals", let me know and I will coordinate them. One person alone gets nowhere but a few often do. I am already compiling a list of problems on behalf of a few people.

Thanks for that explanation of "expert" Jeremy. Now I know.

Bruxinha wrote:Yes, I was at dinner with some friends on Monday night in Carvoeiro. They have a holiday apartment. We got talking about this and that and I mentioned about how underclaring is still going on and that it is now causing problems for some people, as well as the fact that they find they have a nice big Capital Gains Tax bill of 25% to pay when they sell. The husband went as white as a ghost. He said his lawyer had told him no one would sell to him, if he didn't underdeclare the price and was also told that everyone did it and it was normal. He had no idea about the 25% CGT, so I almost ruined his dinner.

Is it any wonder this country is so poor. Certain sectors are bleeding it dry of revenue.

By the way, if anyone wants to make complaints about advice they were given by so-called "professionals", let me know and I will coordinate them. One person alone gets nowhere but a few often do. I am already compiling a list of problems on behalf of a few people.
Thanks for that explanation of "expert" Jeremy. Now I know.

Bruxy,
DIVIDED WE FULL UNITED WE STAND
I think you may have something here....i.e. some of the geniune people that got trapped in the offshore situation and others that have been deceived with regard under declaration and additional matters, if we got all them together than YES, we can get someone to take notice. So anyone who is reading this it's up to you to make contact and tell others.
Good one Bruxy, you have my full support and help.
Nightrider.
ps Lets wait and see what the response is and maybe, we could even have a small committee and in this way help everyone that we can.

Well, we will see, NR. Apathy is contagious and the "I don't want to cause any trouble, I have to live here" attitude is quite prevalent, unfortunately. Hey, but I am here, if anyone wants to go forward with anything.

I was in a similar situation ....problems with Lawyers advise ..problems with Camara Apathy...I went head on to challenge the authorities...five years later I regret...I have been hounded to death and now nothing gets done..take care ..this is a very corrupt place to live and many Portuguese are extremely envious..devious and will stab you in the back time and time again.....I have lived all over the worls but have never known such two faced nation..yes I'm moving on...if you cant take the heat...get out....Portugal has ruined me since I started standing up for my rights....eventually I lost about everything...at one time I employed over 20 people...now I have had to lay them all off. Once again Portugal loses.

Bitter...No....Sad ...yes....

Anonymous wrote:I was in a similar situation ....problems with Lawyers advise ..problems with Camara Apathy...I went head on to challenge the authorities...five years later I regret...I have been hounded to death and now nothing gets done..take care ..this is a very corrupt place to live and many Portuguese are extremely envious..devious and will stab you in the back time and time again.....I have lived all over the worls but have never known such two faced nation..yes I'm moving on...if you cant take the heat...get out....Portugal has ruined me since I started standing up for my rights....eventually I lost about everything...at one time I employed over 20 people...now I have had to lay them all off. Once again Portugal loses.

Bitter...No....Sad ...yes....

..and no doubt Guest...you tried on your own...Nightrider

Bruxy - you are getting me worried here. Is no-one to be trusted?

I will admit that when I bought I assumed that lawyers were honest people (as in the UK), and therefore I probably made a few mistakes BUT

1 I Bought off a multinational organisation (Pestana)
2. I used their recommended lawyer (will not give their name)
3. I had a mortgage with Abbey National
4. Abbey National appointed their lawyer that I had to pay as well
5. Offshore company run by well known firm - Bachmann
6. Since then I had to move mortgage to Banco Totta (thanks Abbey!)
7. Even more lawyers involved! (and new offshore management)

Since most of this was done in my absence (through power of attorney) I am now realising that I have very little idea of what went on.

I also, in common with a purchase in the UK, have very little 'official' paperwork - you assume that these are all kept by the mortgage company as they would be in the UK.

Is it really possible that I have been conned by the combined efforts of 3 Lawyers, one multinational hotel chain, two international banks and two offshore property management companies?

Also, do you have any idea of the paperwork that I should have so that I can track it down.

I have asked this publicly rather than in a PM since I have a feeling that a lot of people are in the same boat - I can understand potential problems if it was just me buying off a small developer using a back street lawyer for cash, but I always presumed that mortgage companies, given their vested interest in making sure there was good title, would give me a degree of assurance that everything was above board!

Ever hopeful and trusting

Graham