I have seen a property I like and it is offshore, which I am perfectly happy with. But I decided to do my own check, because the company concerned is still in a black listed jurisdictiion Gibraltar and I could not work out why the owner had not moved it to Malta, Delaware or some other white listed jurisdiction. On checking with Companies House Gibralter I found a Mortgage Charge on the offshore Company and I believe that unless you discharge the mortgage, the mortgage company will not permit re-domiclilation to another jurisdiction?

I would appeciate it if anyone could kindly advise on the following:-

Why does the notarised Deed dated May 2000 representing the purchase make no mention of the mortgage. A lawyer's name appears on the document acting as Power of Attorney for tjhe offshore company's purchase.

Why does the mortgage appear to have been gained after the date of the notarised deed mid July 2000 (is this possible?) and why is it solely filed at Co Hse, Gibraltar. The same lawyer acquired the mortgage from a well
known company who he was acting for. The mortgage company concerned as far as I am aware no longer operate in the Algarve and others in your forum would appear to have had problems in the past with.

Should the mortgage not be displayed on the Deed and/or the Land Registry Certificate here in Portugal?

The lawyer concerned has not brought any attention to the exsistence of the mortgage.Therefore, if I had not been aware of the procedure to have checked this matter out for myself, I would not of course have been aware of the exsistence of a mortgage. Given that my intention is to purchase an offshore company it is therefore more than important to be made away of such matters as a mortgage namely because one is purchasing the shares and therefore, documents such as the Deed and Land Registry do not changed. I.e. no actual sale in Portugal just the transferring of the offshore shares.

I welcome any advice on this matter and hopefully, others not aware will find this article of some assistance.

well the advice is plain and simple dont touch with a barge pole...anyone who hasnt either transfered to white listed or into own name is either an idiot or something is odd..either way,...dont touch...

ps...there are thousand of properties in own names..one agent says that there are more sellersthan buyers at moment..keep looking

and if despite what i have said you go ahead ..then dont say anyone didnt warn you

I agree with the comments of the guest, that I wouldn't buy this property...too many irregularities.

In fact, it all sounds extremely dodgy to me and if you feel so inclined I would contact the mortgage company and the various authorities here to at least register these anomalies, as some other unsuspecting sucker might not have found that out.

Don't know much about mortgages here but would assume that it has to be noted on the Land Registry certificate and deed. I have seen Portuguese mortgages from banks clearly noted on these documents. Maybe someone else more knowledgeable about this can give you the information on this forum.

Dear Guest

re: Whom wrote:- The advice is plain:

T y for taking the trouble to reply, but forgive me but I think you missed the point that I was trying to make. The fact that I have checked with Co Hse, Gibralter, means of course that I am doing my homework before I may or may not purchase. My question(s) was:- When a mortgage is taken out , be it an "offshore company" or "name(s) individual(s) with the sole person of an asset in Portugal:-

"MUST THE FILED LAND REGISTRY DOCUMENT AND/OR NOTARISED DEED OR ANY OTHER DEPARTMENT/FORM IN PORTUGAL DISPLAY THE MORTGAGE & DATE OF THE MORTGAGE CHARGE":-

In simply terms if the mortgage is not displayed and if you use a lawyer/solicidor, who for whatever reason does not advise you, how would you know about the mortgage and more so if it has been discharged on your purchase etc.

With regard your statement both Offshore and possible Portuguese small holdings nominee companies are still the best vehicle to purchase a property with in Portugal. The problem was that when Portugal declared places like Gibralter as Blacklisted, unfortunately and for whatever reason the original prices that were declared left the owners with a hefty deficit of CGs. Those who bought new. more often than not were caught out by estate agents, lawyers and the devlopers i.e. under declaration of course helping the builder ect etc.
As for more properties on the market then buyers, frankly, where oh where are they in the Algarve.One only has to look as I have done for the past 18 months in local rags, well established estate agents and all crying out for property to sell. Therefore, PLEASE, please give me the name of the Estate Agent who gave you the information.
I sign off by saying again Thank you for your concern, but either I did not explain myself well or you misunderstood.

Dear Bruxinha,

I think most would say that "commen sense" should prevail on the matter that I have brought to the forum.

Yes I did contact Abbey Nat and was advised "that they used appointed lawyers to look after their interests here in Portugal and the paperwork left in their capable hands".(Oh dear I found myself thinking here we go again). In the UK under the Charge Section of the Land Registry Certificate, a mortgage is recorded and of course removed when it is discharged and the lender holds onto the "original copy". Here in Portugal the original Deed and Land Registry Document is held at the Notary and Conservatory Predial and on any purchase you are only supplied with Certified Copies. Of course Abb Nat quite correctly would not discuss any actual client with me? But I have to say that when I asked them if they held certified copies, they refered again to the above mentioned. With regard reporting it to the authorities, what would I actually be reporting? In that I need to find the following answer first, in otherwords get my "facts" right i.e.:-

The very point of my question was that I am trying not to "assume" in this matter and therefore trying to seek the answer to and I repeat myself "MUST a mortgage be filed at the Land Registry and/or Notary here in Portugal in otherwords on Public Records.

Thank you for taken the trouble to reply and may I say I always enjoy reading your inputs. I am considering joining the Forum, learning Portuguese and then becoming perhaps an EU Observer anyone want to join me on the latter he he...have to keep smiling dont we!!!!!!!

well if you want detailed specific info as you seem to want ..why are u asking here ..go to a llawyer...but we warned again what one observer said of italy but is also true here..if you ask the same question 1000 times you will get a 1000 different answers.

well if you decide to purchase an black listed property...iI think when you come to sell it there will very very few interested.

as for looking at agents ..we live here and it took us 6months of work to find a house....so keep looking....

Dear Guest,

re: Well if you want:

Frankly, I found your posting somewhat difficult to comprehend, in that with respect I believe that you are attempting to make comment with regard "a lawyer" and if this is the case it would appear that you have not understood my enquiry, in that I thought that I had made clear my position on lawyers hence my question in the first place. Whilst I do not disagree that my enquiry to some degree perhaps is somewhat selfish but then I am highlighting what could be a problem for others and not just companies by the way.

With regards so called professionals out here, I have no further comment to make. Each person on this subject must make up their own minds, who they choose or not to choose. All I am saying is that if I had not done "MY" homework etc etc etc.

As for purchasing any property in a Portuguese blacklisted zone, I do not believe that I have actually said that? However, I did say "that I was not duly concerned about purchasing an Offshore Company or Portuguese Holding Company". I.e. re-domicilation?

I am not sure why or where the subject of Italy has entered into the discussion and therefore, would reaffirm my enquiry is about Portugal and if one is obliged to Register (as in the UK) a Mortgage Charge at the Land Registry and or Notary and therefore filed as I believe it should on PUBLIC RECORDS for any would be purchaser to view. (In otherwords PROTECTING JOE PUBLIC). I wonder what the EU legislation is on this matter.

With regard the actual forum, as I understand it among other very interesting and informative matters, is basically swapping ideas and if and I repeat myself you can assist others with helpful information so be it.

Finally, may I please take this opportunity to congratulate the individual(s) who set it up this forum "very well done".

The points raised in guests original post are not as irregular as they might appear. One of the main concepts of "offshore" mortgage lending to company held property as developed by Abbey National, Jyske Bank etc was to take a charge on the shares of the company held property to avoid registering a mortgage here in Portugal. It would be most unlikely in the circumstances he/she describes that the ownership of the shares would have been transferred without having been made aware of the mortgage and that having been lifted first - even without doing his/her own research.

The fact that the property is still held by a blacklisted company may not be so bad but obviously on purchase Guest needs to sort it out.

Guest needs some advice to clarify the issues. If he pms me I may be able to help?

Dear Biffa,

re: Offshore Companies Mortgages

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply and in a fair World, one could accept what you say.

Portugal is a member of the EU and therefore, it is believed that by not placing such matters as a Mortgage Charged on Public Records in Portugual would be a breach. I.e. any company registered say in Gibraltar who has a mortgage has to be on Public Record in Gibraltar.
Portuguese legislation requires all offshore companies to register here.Therefore, surely any Mortgage Charge must be declared in Portugal and by doing so on Public Record confirming any vested interest in the ownership of the offshore company. I take it that the actual Share Certificate(s) are held by the actual Lender and not any legal identity?

With regard such matters of lawyers, well of course I think most would agree that there are lawyers and lawyers and it does concern me that in the past such as Abbey Nat etc, relied so heavily on the above mentioned.

sorry "in a fair world"!!!!..I take it you have never lived here...for heavens sake if you want detailed answers to these questions go and see a lawyer.

you keep going on about some eu directive...yes there are many eu directives and many are toitally ignored by the camaras here...and its no good argueing ..thats the way it is..they do what THEY want here

biffa is an an expert on these things ....take his advice

That is the whole point guest, there is no mortgage registered on the property.

The lender would normally have a Pledge of Shares in place between themselves, the borrower as personal guarantor and the company represented by the directors. In your case they seem to have also regsitered a charge at the Company Registry in Gib. That is not always done.

The process is quite normal and safe.

Yes I have lived here for sometime. If you wish to use a lawyer than that of course is your choice. However, I fail to understand what appears to me as rudess.

Dear Biffa,

Thank you very much indeed (and I do mean that) for once again taking the trouble to reply. I have to say to you that for sensitive reasons, I cannot tell all for the moment and therefore, have not contacted you via pm. But will hopefully, be in a position to advise you later of the actual details, which are far from normal etc.

As a matter of interest and if you have a spare moment, look up the Mortgage Charge Register at Co Hse Gibralter and the Central Register in Lisboa of Offshore Companies with asset/property in Portugal.
Finally, one only has to examine several Deeds and Land Registry documents displaying Mortgage Charges to realise the importance of such registration.

I believe "our guest friend" has mistaken friendly discussion between us as some form of critisum on my part, I feel your far to intellegent for such rubbish. Regards and thank you again and I do hope to catch up with you later.

Hello Guest

What web pages are you consulting re the "Mortgage Charge Register at Co Hse Gibralter and the Central Register in Lisboa of Offshore Companies with asset/property in Portugal"

Dear Biffa,

Personally, and were applicable obtaining copies.

Regards,