Cecol Accountants

Share experience regarding ownership of property and/or living in Portugal.
Farol
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Farol »

I haven't registered via the https://eportugal.gov.pt/servicos/aderi ... letronicas site but registered via the https://www.acesso.gov.pt/unauthed/novo site which gives access to your financial records. As part of this you can pick up the full details of your IMI bills and status amongst other things. As somebody else said if you use a translator it might cause confusion. Nº Contribuinte is your fiscal number which if you own property then I'm sure you will have one. Regarding mobile phone number try putting in your normal mobile number in international format (for UK 00447-------). Pergunta Secreta is obviously giving you a choice of security questions and the next field is your answer.
Morada Fiscal is the address of the property that you are trying to get the IMI for - I found the best way to ensure the address was correct was to take it from an old IMI bill. Apart from IMI this site gives access to all the other forms of Portuguese tax and they email various notofications and show a consolidated tax calendar.

Looking through the UK Gov website I think that there are long standing agreements between the UK and Portugal that avoid double taxation liability and these were independent of EU membership.

Reading as much as possible about fiscal representation of various PT gov websites they always talk in terms of taxable income and that that requiires a fiscal rep. I have not been able either now nor in the past to find anything that says if you have no taxable income in PT that you still require a fiscal rep. In the past even portuguese financial advisors would not give a definitive answer on this.

In 19 years of ownership I have never had any taxable income in Portugal, I receive the paper copies of my IMI bills at my Portuguese home, pay my bills either at the post office, multibanco or bank transfer from my PT bank account. The system gives me the timetable and reminders for other tax matters but they don't apply to me so I ignore them. I have never had a fiscal rep and never had a problem relating to this. My main residence is in the UK and this is my chosen tax location.

Before the EU told PT that fiscal reps were not required under EU laws previous concensus was that anyboby can act as a fiscal rep - including any friend, neighbour, etc. The only downside of that was that they in theory can be held liable for your tax if you don't pay but that is the same with a company acting as a fiscal rep which is why they charge a lot for doing little.

I might be totally wrong in what I'm doing but as I have said it's worked ok for 19 years. If I am wrong I don't doubt I have saved more in avoiding fees than any fine that might arise from not having a fiscal rep as there is no other liability as all taxes have been paid on time.

The advice has to be to do as much research as you can and then decide what is best for you.
RichardHenshall
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by RichardHenshall »

The second link in the previous post was accidentally truncated from https://www.acesso.gov.pt/unauthed/novoUtilizadorForm? just in case anyone is trying to follow it.
Farol wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:43 am... I receive the paper copies of my IMI bills at my Portuguese home, [...] My main residence is in the UK and this is my chosen tax location. ...
In these circumstances the Portuguese authorities will never expect you to have a fiscal representative because, according to their records, you reside in Portugal (defined by your 'fiscal address'). It may seem unimportant but if, for instance, you were to move to Portugal full-time and seek to obtain the NHR tax status, you would fail. And somebody might eventually start wondering how you've lived for 19 years without declaring any income!
Geoff
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Geoff »

Ah, thanks for the last 2 contributions, though it might seem that 1 step forward, 1 back! We used to have Portuguese income from renting out the house, but don't any more, so it's only IMI to worry about with the tax people.

As regards:
Morada Fiscal is the address of the property that you are trying to get the IMI for - I found the best way to ensure the address was correct was to take it from an old IMI bill.
Looking at an IMI bill ( forwarded from Sovereign) under "descricao dos prédios " ( description of buildings) I just have "NNNNNN Estombar EP-U-NNNNNN-A" which is not recognisable ( to me) as our address in Sesmarias! In more normal times, think I would pay a visit to the Financias in Lagoa ! Are all addresses cryptic like this? ( N = a number which it might not be prudent to publicise).

Talking around, I know someone else who has never had a Fiscal Rep.....nor IMI bills.
RichardHenshall
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by RichardHenshall »

If you already have a fiscal representative, when you try to register at https://www.acesso.gov.pt/unauthed/novoUtilizadorForm? you will have to use the rep's address as that is, effectively, already recorded as your address.

That is where the activation password will be sent too, so you'll need their assistance.
Farol
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Farol »

Geoff wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:07 pm
Looking at an IMI bill ( forwarded from Sovereign) under "descricao dos prédios " ( description of buildings) I just have "NNNNNN Estombar EP-U-NNNNNN-A" which is not recognisable ( to me) as our address in Sesmarias! In more normal times
This coded address is the unique reference number for each property as recorded in the equivalent of their land registry system and it against this code that the IMI bill is issued.

The address on the outside of the IMI bill will be your Fiscal Rep's (if you have one) or in my case my actual property's postal address.
RichardHenshall wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:29 pm That is where the activation password will be sent too, so you'll need their assistance.
I don't see this as a matter of needing their assistance - you are paying them for a service and as such if they receive something in your name then they should forward it to you.

Do not forget that you can change your fiscal rep at any time as they are only acting on your behalf. Obviously this can be done by a visit to the Financas but I don't know if it can be done on-line.

Regarding somebody never having received an IMI bill at all the only times I've known that was with a new property as the bill effectively is issued in arrears as it relates to the previous year ending 31st Dec or alternatively a property that changed hands very quickly. Whomever owns the property on 31st Dec is the person liable for the whole year's IMI.
RichardHenshall
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by RichardHenshall »

Farol wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:58 pm...
RichardHenshall wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:29 pm That is where the activation password will be sent too, so you'll need their assistance.
I don't see this as a matter of needing their assistance - you are paying them for a service and as such if they receive something in your name then they should forward it to you. ...
I agree. Though some fiscal reps have appeared to add significant payment processing fees when asking for funds for IMI payments and may not appreciate the owner being easily able to bypass this revenue generating section of their business. It would be this group who, I imagine, might not be so helpful.
steve
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by steve »

Good luck getting your digital key to work. I have been on two occasions to my nearest Espaço Cidadao to try and sort the problem out but despite going through the registration process I can't get access. I believe that these offices are now only open to visits by appointment under the latest restrictions. When I raised a query with AFPOP I was told that they were aware that there were a lot of problems in gaining access for foreigners. Nationals can of course sort the problem out on the Finaças website where a citizen's card is required.
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Geoff
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Geoff »

I've done a lot of research amongst friends with property in Portugal but whose main residence is in the UK and have almost as many variants as people I have contacted ! Everything from....never been asked to pay IMI, even Silves camra said it's not necessary....IMI bills are emailed to me and I've never had a Fiscal Rep....IMI bills are posted to me in UK and our solicitor is nominally our Fiscal Rep, but doesn't charge as nothing to do.......we use our solicitor who charges.....

Sovereign say "...When we register as the fiscal representative for clients then we become fiscally responsible for them in Portugal. It is a legal requirement for non-residents of the EU who have a fiscal number to have a fiscal representative .......The tax department will only send the bills to you directly if you have an EU address. If they sent them to your Portugal address this would make you a tax resident in Portugal."

Fortunately, our solicitor has agreed to be our fiscal rep for about half the Sovereign charge. Be nice to have confirmation as to whether it is a legal requirement though IF I can get the IMI bills emailed to me......wouldn't want to deliberately flout the law.
djprescott
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by djprescott »

Geoff, presumably you have answered your question regarding having your IMI bill emailed, it wouldn't prove where you reside. Why can't you have the bills posted to you in the UK?
Geoff
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Geoff »

Why can't you have the bills posted to you in the UK?
Possibility, but don't like the idea of relying on snail mail and be fined for late IMI payment, would prefer to get them by email, preferably directly.....big question really is whether Fiscal Reps are mandatory irrespective of how you get an IMI bill.....Sovereign say yes ( but then. perhaps they would) though paras 14 & 15 ( see above) imply perhaps not....
RichardHenshall
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by RichardHenshall »

djprescott wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:14 pm... Why can't you have the bills posted to you in the UK?
I've seen many statements that they will not post to addresses outside the EU (/EEA?). If so, I've no idea where that leaves those registered in the UK but seeking an access password for the Portal das Finanças, if they don't already have a fiscal rep appointed.
Geoff
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Geoff »

I've seen many statements that they will not post to addresses outside the EU

.....but this is precisely what happens to a friend of ours!
RichardHenshall
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by RichardHenshall »

They do post to outside EU or they don't?
Geoff
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by Geoff »

They do post to outside EU or they don't?
They do indeed post to a UK address of a friend of ours...interestingly, from the Lisbon Financas rather than the Lagoa ones ( for a CVO property).
RichardHenshall
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Re: Cecol Accountants

Post by RichardHenshall »

But will they still? UK was deemed in the EU until a month ago. We're handled by a Lisbon office too.
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