Renting : Social Security Payments

Share experience regarding ownership of property and/or living in Portugal.

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Renting : Social Security Payments

Postby Geoff » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:45 pm

Under the new regime, Social Security is payable in Portugal after the first year of letting IF you don't pay it in your country of residence. As a UK pensioner, one doesn't pay NI but apparently proof of this is required.
Forms E101, A1 ,P1 have all been mentioned by our accountants , but they haven't produced such a form & I can't trace anything like this in the UK.

Any UK pensioners who rent property in Portugal had any success here please?
Last edited by Geoff on Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby widge » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:26 pm

Hi Geoff,

I have picked my way through this minefield and failed to reach any satisfactory conclusion. The Portuguese authorities were sent proof that I was in receipt of a UK company pension and did not pay National Insurance.
When I contacted the UK N.I Contributions Office in Newcastle they advised me that Form E 104 does not exist in UK and has been superseded by form SO 41. This only applies to UK Nationals living permanently in Portugal & therefore I don't qualify as only my business is permanently based in Portugal. It seems I have to register myself as self employed in UK because I have a holiday letting business & should pay National Insurance contributions on any profit above £5772 per year ! You pay the NI up front and reclaim after you submit your UK tax return which evidences any profit or loss having applied the UK rules to your Portuguese business. This is brand new legislation and untested yet in UK.

As I don't make a profit and don't want to be a guinea pig and certainly don't want to pay NI I retreated under the radar. Not very satisfactory but as I can evidence that I make a loss every year and don't pay UK National Insurance I feel I'm on the right side of the law albeit my administration records are inadequate.
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby Geoff » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:55 pm

Thanks Widge...have the Portuguese authorities accepted that you don't pay UK NI & (probably!) don't need to?

I have an HMRC Notice of Coding that says as much and wonder if that would be valid.

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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby RichardHenshall » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:14 pm

My starting point has been to complete a CA8421 form as at https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ea-ca8421i but since HMRC have yet to respond I've no idea if this is relevant. :|
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby Geoff » Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:44 pm

Thanks Richard.....it looks promising though I couldn't get it to print off the final form....but at least I have now written to them with all the info, so fingers crossed...but am not holding my breath!
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby widge » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:52 pm

Geoff did you arrive Faro airport at 1100hrs this morning or do you have a twin brother ?
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby Geoff » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:20 pm

Hi Widge...more like 1030, or even a tad earlier...you should have called out!
Coming for a walk on monday?
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby widge » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:06 pm

Sorry Geoff wasn't sure it was you as you didn't have your tilley hat on! As for the walk regret have 91 year old father in law with us and don't thunk he'd last the distance.
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby Geoff » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:36 pm

Excuses! He can stay back at home!
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Re: Renting : Social Security Pasyments

Postby widge » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:22 am

Geoff wrote:Excuses! He can stay back at home!


Kind of defeats the object of bringing him away with us :roll:
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Re: Renting : Social Security Payments

Postby Geoff » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:06 am

Kind of defeats the object of bringing him away with us
.......I'm sure he won't mind.....3 hours out of 24! how's the knee by the way?
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Re: Renting : Social Security Payments

Postby widge » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:17 pm

Knee good thank's, outstanding surgeon who has sadly since retired. If ever you need surgery get at least 3 opinions, you'll be surprised at how differently they see the solution to the problem ! Experience rules in my book.
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Re: Renting : Social Security Payments

Postby RichardHenshall » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:00 pm

Further to my post earlier (before the thread-creep :D ) I have now heard back from HMRC and in my case (not old enough to be retired and still employed in UK) I am now deemed to be self-employed too as a result of 'the work I do in Portugal'. This means I must pay UK Class 2 contributions (£2.80 per week) on 'everything I earn from the self-employed work I do in Portugal'. If I only receive a small income/profit (less than £5965 per annum), then Class 2 will not be due.

I have the A1 form for the Portuguese authorities - now I have to work out who in Portugal needs to see it so I don't get nobbled for Segurança Social. :?
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Re: Renting : Social Security Payments

Postby Geoff » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:18 pm

Furher to the above, I too have now heard back from the HMRC.

They do not consider that I am "working" in the UK, purely because I run a " villa renting business in Portugal"....and the magic A1 document only applies if you are working in 2 countries....hence they refuse to issue it to me.

Hence it looks as if I will be liable for Portuguese Social Secirity payments, even though, as retired and over 65, I am exempt from paying NI in the UK!

Anyone know how much they are?
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Re: Renting : Social Security Payments

Postby widge » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:25 pm

RichardHenshall wrote:Further to my post earlier (before the thread-creep :D ) I have now heard back from HMRC and in my case (not old enough to be retired and still employed in UK) I am now deemed to be self-employed too as a result of 'the work I do in Portugal'. This means I must pay UK Class 2 contributions (£2.80 per week) on 'everything I earn from the self-employed work I do in Portugal'. If I only receive a small income/profit (less than £5965 per annum), then Class 2 will not be due.

I have the A1 form for the Portuguese authorities - now I have to work out who in Portugal needs to see it so I don't get nobbled for Segurança Social. :?


Sounds like you're in the same situation as me Richard. Please let us know how things develop, I am still sitting on my hands and - hopefully - under the radar.
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