Increasing the Kva in a villa

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mattcronshaw
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Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by mattcronshaw »

Hi
I am hoping that someone has been in the same situation as I find myself in.
I own a 3 bedroom semi detached villa on the Silver Coast.
Ever since the villa was completed, I have had a problem with the electricity tripping when the under floor heating is on and a couple of other pieces of electrical equipment.
After several different visits from several different electricians, it was universally agreed upon that my kva potencia of 6.9Kva was insufficient for the villa. This in itself didn't make much sense to me, since 2 of the other villas on the condominium, which are exactly the same build, have the same kva and do not suffer the problems I do.
The 4th villa, it should be noted, has the higher level of kva - somewhere around 11.6kva I believe - being delivered to the property by EDP.
Anyway, letting this drop, I approached EDP and asked them if they could increase my KVA.
Not so simple - they insisted that I have the property assessed by Certiel, who are the governing body of all things electrical and only once they gave the go ahead, would I be allowed the increase in potencia.
Certiel came out and gave me a list of things I would need to have done, including increasing the width of the cabling going to the house!!! That is a massive job that I haven't even thought about getting a quote for yet.
Can anybody help? Shall I approach EDP and give them the example of the 4th villa, who they are already providing a higher potencia to?
Or is there any other way I can get this resolved without having to spend heavily on uprooting the whole of the patio in order to replace the cabling?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
pato
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by pato »

I have absolutely no knowledge of anything electrical to me it's "white man's magic" but I do think out of the box, so how about running a generator for say, the underfloor heating or as an alternative introduce solar electricity, would that help by reducing the load? :|
Mike Banks
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by Mike Banks »

Like Pato, I have no personal knowledge of electrics at this level, but we had a similar problem with our apartment. The whole thing would trip out whenever we had used the hob AND oven together. When we had air-conditioning installed we anticipated that this would be a major problem, but we were told that all we needed was a minor adjustment at the distribution box. Certainly, we have had no trouble since then, so whatever they did must have worked.
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by maccasa »

Increasing the kVA is a simple matter of changing the trip overload - providing THE INCOMING AND OUTGOING CABLE IS SUFFICIENT! EDP are con artists and charge you for the size of rated kVA that you have installed - irrespective of what you use.

Depends on the type of trip you have - a lot of them have a simple dial at the front or side which is turned to the overload setting - usually shown in number of amps, but can equally be just a number. If the breaker is capable of a higher rating - it should be - then the overload just needs to be increased :wink:
mattcronshaw
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by mattcronshaw »

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
I'll have a look at increasing the trip overload in the first instance. However, I'm sure one of the many electricians who have been out to look at the problem would have spotted this and suggested it. Or do you think, as a certified electrician, they wouldn't want to do this? Would it be against regulations?
The solar panels suggestion is an interesting one too. I actually asked about fitting panels whilst the property was being built but the builder suggested that this is only really done to heat swimming pools! Hmmm.
steve
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by steve »

As far as I am aware increasing the potencia has to be done by EDP. Many years ago I had this done at my old house and there was no charge but when I had it done at my new house 10 years ago I had to pay a hefty charge, although at the time there was no charge for reducing the potencia. As far as I recollect it was simply a matter of increasing the size of the main fuse inside the house and the amount charged seemed a bit of a con to me. The main fuse is sealed by EDP and consumers can face a heavy fine if the potencia has been altered without EDP approval. It does make sense that the wiring must be suitable for the higher load being sought.
SatRoger
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by SatRoger »

mattcronshaw wrote:Hi
Or is there any other way I can get this resolved without having to spend heavily on uprooting the whole of the patio in order to replace the cabling?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Do you understand Portuguese or use Google Chrome/Translate for Portuguese websites?

If you register for your account on EDP site at https://edponline.edp.pt one of the options is to change the Kva (see attached img).
When I bought my apartment last year, the previous owner (who didn't use the apartment) had 3.45Kva and that was what I got transfer to my contract. I used the site to increase to 6.9kva because I installed A/C. It was done online without any problems and no extra charge. I see on my dropdown the option to go all the way up to 41.4kVa
Attachments
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2015-03-27_133727.png (23.84 KiB) Viewed 12489 times
Last edited by SatRoger on Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sam
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by sam »

A few years ago we had our meter read for the first time in about 5 years. He said we were on the wrong potencia (higher than our contract). He opened the fuse box and moved the trip overload down one. I said it had been that when we bought the property. It had an old lead seal, and he said he should report it, but as this type of seal had not been used for many years EDP should have noticed this and changed it years ago.
EDP were contacted and we needed to upgrade the main fuse box to increase the potencia. We did this then they insisted we needed an external meter before they would do this. They said we could not do this until they had done a site visit. Weeks later after several calls we were they do not do site visits and told our electrician would know what to do, then they would connect it. Done, but by this time they had changed regulations and we needed something more. Done.
They insisted our electrician be present when they did the connection. They finally turned up but did not have the correct (standard) cable, so said they would have to come back another day. Our electrician was so incensed he made them make arrangements for him to go to their depot to collect the cable whilst they prepped for connection. Finally job done.
By this time the pool heater had broken down, and as this was the reason for requesting the higher potencia we didn't pursue the matter further. Pool heater now repaired and providing we don't overload on electrical appliances no problem, so have left it as it is. At least we get the meter read more often and that part of the electrics are new. Whole experience with EDP was a nightmare and they seemed to make things up as they went along.
RichardHenshall
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by RichardHenshall »

SatRoger wrote:... I used the site to increase to 6.9kva because I installed A/C. It was done online without any problems and no extra charge. ...
How did they arrange their visit to adjust the trip switch? Our meter is outside the property but the trip switch is inside.
SatRoger
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by SatRoger »

RichardHenshall wrote:How did they arrange their visit to adjust the trip switch? Our meter is outside the property but the trip switch is inside.
Mine is outside, I wasn't there when they visit. To tell you the truth, I don't even know if they went there, because they didn't schedule any visit.
From what I see on EDP' site, up to 10,35 kva is single "phase". Above 10,35 requires "tri-phase" (trifásica), and they recommend a energy audit, but its not required.
https://energia.edp.pt/particulares/ser ... uminacao=1 (in Portuguese).

Google translate:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

This shows if you go above 10,35kva:
For a power output exceeding 10.35 kVA, the electrical installation is divided into three phases (three-phase) is necessary to share power by each of them. If you prefer you can ask for an Energy Audit that, in addition to recommend you the ideal power indicates improvement measures to reduce the energy bill.
maccasa
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by maccasa »

That doesn't make sense - I've got 21 kVA installed on single phase. Do a simple calc - kettle 1.5kW, cooker 2.5kW, Washing machine 1.5kW, Dishwasher 1.5Kw, Microwave 1 Kw, Air con 3 rooms 6.5kW, Lighting 1 kw, TV O.5 kW, water heater 1.5kW, Pool pump 1.5Kw - don't even think about the Iron and the Tumble dryer!It's easy to get to well over 15 kW running at the same time. :roll:
SatRoger
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by SatRoger »

maccasa wrote:That doesn't make sense - I've got 21 kVA installed on single phase. Do a simple calc - kettle 1.5kW, cooker 2.5kW, Washing machine 1.5kW, Dishwasher 1.5Kw, Microwave 1 Kw, Air con 3 rooms 6.5kW, Lighting 1 kw, TV O.5 kW, water heater 1.5kW, Pool pump 1.5Kw - don't even think about the Iron and the Tumble dryer!It's easy to get to well over 15 kW running at the same time. :roll:
From what is in EDP site, anything above 10,35 kVa (which is not the same as kw) must be tri-phase. 10,35 kVa gives you about 45 amps, which should be enough for your list - your meter must be fun to see with all that on at the same time :)
maccasa
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by maccasa »

Not so much fun when the bill arrives!
maccasa
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by maccasa »

I thought kVA was the same as kW? Volts x amps = watts or has that changed in the EU as well?
RichardHenshall
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Re: Increasing the Kva in a villa

Post by RichardHenshall »

It depends on the power factor, as any fule kno. :wink:
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